Bacon Egg & Cheese4/25/2011 4:46:17 PM
Can someone explain to me why Lonergan is a good choice as KH replacement? I am a recent fan of GWBB and know absolutely nothing about Lonergan.
His StatSheet profile doesn't look to promising:
herve4/25/2011 4:47:51 PM
Good Xs and Os, bad recruiting. Has ties with Nero and Kvancz. Obviously knows mid-major woes.
danjsport4/25/2011 4:52:57 PM
So in 4 years we can long for the days of a good recruit, regardless of how he coaches during the game? This feels cyclical...
LA Fan4/25/2011 4:54:16 PM
Longeran is just a name being thrown out there. I think they go for someone that we will all be more excited about.
Mentzinger4/25/2011 4:55:30 PM
No, he's a front-runner. And a lousy one at that. 10 NCAA tournalment appearances and we cannot expect a coach with D1 bona fides? Apparently not.
Poog4/25/2011 4:56:08 PM
He was a hot local commodity when he was coaching at Catholic before heading to Vermont. Not quite sure why he's still considered such an irresistible possibility. But if nothing else, all those anti-JK folks can put that to rest and start judging the new AD. Hope the big splash he's making isn't necessary to put out the big fire he just created.
NJ Colonial4/25/2011 5:46:34 PM
Yes, Joe is a hothead but he is a Colonial and wants to win!
UVM Hoop Cat4/25/2011 5:49:51 PM
Herve: you are far off on your assessment of Mike Lonergan. He is more known as a great recruiter and not as good of an X's and O's guy. Is very harsh on his players but gets results
Bacon Egg & Cheese4/25/2011 5:55:09 PM
Does Vermont finish in the top 3 of their conference ever year or something? I just don't get how a good recruiter/coach wins only 1 conference tourney in their career.
UVM Hoop Cat4/25/2011 6:07:57 PM
They finish in the top 3 almost every year since he's been there....except for year one. He got to the championship game in that season. In his second year (2006-2007) they finished 1st in the reg season and were 15-1 and lost by 1 point in the conference championship. Last season (2010-2011) they finished 1st in conference and got upset after there top 3 players had bad injuries going into the postseason, one of these players was the America East ROY (a Lonergan Recruit). They won and went to NCAA the season before (2009-2010) and their star just got called up to the NBA with the Houston Rockets (a Lonergan recruit). The prior year (2008-2009) they finished in a tie for first place in the reg season. In 2007-2008 they finished 4th. Next season they will probably finish in the top 3 and have an impressive group coming in that he recruited. He also recruited Joe Trapani to Vermont who played and was ROY (but then transferred to Boston College) and Jordan Clarke who was above America East level who transferred to Drake.
Bacon Egg & Cheese4/25/2011 6:22:34 PM
Thanks for the perspective Hoop Cat
formerly boston pops4/25/2011 10:32:53 PM
Hoop Cat's insights put lonegran in a pretty god light. i like most of what i've heard about him. don't want dooley. we just god rid of a hot head and i don't want another for a good long while.
UVM Hoop Cat4/25/2011 11:00:24 PM
Yes, Lonergan is good recruiter and has ties to Nero (former AE commish until 5 days ago). You'll be happy with him if it is him. The only knock on him is that he is very tough on his players and can be a tad bit negative at times but it comes at the advantage of getting 100% out of his players. Some smaller things like being "too tough" and not winning press conference get magnified at the America East level (yes its America East for you guys out there that keep calling it American East ;-) ) but at the A-10 level I feel this is more the norm. Also will add he was the Coach of the Year this season in the America East, his second award. The guy knows winning too, also didn't add that in the 6 years he has 5 20-win seasons, consecutive.
UVM Hoop Cat4/25/2011 11:01:03 PM
Oh yah, and if he doesn't get the job, we'd love to keep him up in Burlington!
UVM Hoop Cat4/25/2011 11:04:06 PM
In case any of you were wondering Lonergan also coached Vermont to a victory in 2008 against George Washington in their only meeting during the Hobbs/Lonergan era in the Rainbow Classic of 2008, 83-72
dclost4/25/2011 11:08:35 PM
The Rainbow Classic was pretty much the lowest point in GW basketball history. I think most here have tried to block it out of memory.
Fundies4/26/2011 12:22:42 AM
Lonergan teams play very good team defense. That is what he stresses. He has had the Defensive Player of the Year on his team four straight seasons. The offense might be ugly, but it works. Also, he is a good X and O guy. His team this season was not going to wow you with talent. He lost Blakely and 4 other starters/big contributors from the NCAA team, and still led the team to a regular season title with 23 wins and an NIT bid where they just barely lost to Cleveland State, without Fjeld, their best player who got hurt.Need to be a pretty good coach to get a team with that personnel to win the league, when they were picked fifth. They just got unlucky this year and had injuries pile up right before the conference tournament this year. Guy has developed his good recruits too. Blakely was completely unheralded and he became a 2 time player of the year and is in the NBA. There are a lot more too, some returning guys who are freshman and sophomores are all-conference caliber players. I think his record speaks for itself. Guy wins, and I think he would win a lot at GW. The America East might not be a good conference, but he has made that team the best program by far, even with a very bad gym and small budget. GW could do way, way worse.
bingbearcats4/26/2011 12:47:50 AM
As a fan of a rival AE team I hope GW plucks Lonergan out of the conference. He's a fantastic coach who has kept his team in contention for the title every single year he was at Vermont. He also recruits well in the mid-atlantic region.
The only knock on him is that he's had less than stellar results in the AE tournament. His team was the victim to three upsets, two of them bad (lost in the championship game in 06-07 as a #1 seed to a #2, lost in the quarterfinals in 08-09 as a #2 seed to a #7, lost in the semis in 10-11 as a #1 seed to a #5) and only one year he overachieved in the tournament (got to the championship game in 05-06 as a #6 seed).
bingbearcats4/26/2011 12:50:11 AM
Also I'd mention that Lonergan is a FANTASTIC big man coach. Nearly every big man who goes to Vermont ends up being a good-great player by the time he is a senior. Evne the guys who look like stiffs as freshman.
His guards have been good offensively, not so good defensively, especially against athletic wings.
Carmy 1014/26/2011 1:23:15 AM
At least it's is nice to see the input from fans of ther programs and conferences such as Vermont, Oregon on another thread ect..Better than the usually visitors, mocking St. Joes, Temple and Xavier fans..
Bigfan4/26/2011 1:53:53 AM
Thanks for the perspective, folks, Helps in weighing things.
herve4/26/2011 7:51:29 AM
herve4/26/2011 8:07:28 AM
Monument4/26/2011 8:26:51 AM
GW would be lucky to get Lonergan.
maypoman4/26/2011 11:29:50 AM
I very much agree!
LA Fan4/26/2011 12:19:25 PM
Lonergan seems like a good x's and o's coach. He wins games with very little talent. Who wants to go play in Vermont where it is cold, with no media coverage, in a small gym and very little school support?
But the big question on Lonergan is does he know the recruiting circuit? Are we going to be getting 7 footers a la Clint Holtz and Chris Fitzgerald? We need the combo of game coach plus recruiter. Lonergan seems to fit one half of the bill and Joe Dooley fits the other half. That being said, it would be interesting to see what Lonergan could do if he could keep the existing roster of GW players plus the 3 new recruits together.
thinker4/26/2011 12:38:15 PM
All three recruits will not be coming - there is ZERO chance of that. Possibly one might still come, small chance that two could come, not three.
The MV4/26/2011 12:52:48 PM
Thinker, T. Davis is gone?
Poog4/26/2011 12:58:34 PM
Did he actually ever sign or just verbal?
GW264/26/2011 1:07:04 PM
Being that Hobbs is known as a great recruiter and poor in-game coach, you would have to think that the new coach would want to keep most if not all the talent that is here including the incoming recruits. It's late in the game as well. In theory, with a solid game coach we should be able to be Top 5 in A10 next year but obviously that's not as easy as it sounds.
danjsport4/26/2011 1:09:09 PM
thinker- how much of that is because of the coaching change and how much is due to qualification issues?
Fundies4/26/2011 1:12:23 PM
LA Fan- Need to dig a bit deeper before making assumptions. Vermont athletics actually get a ton of media coverage, given that it is the only game in town. They have 3 TV stations, the state's biggest paper and an ESPN Radio affiliate covering them constantly. That pales to DC, but to say he gets no coverage is silly. Lonergan's potential leaving is kicking off newcasts in VT right now. Their gym stinks, but the fan support there is great. They nearly sell out every game. I think you are underestimating his recruiting ability a lot too. He is recruiting exactly the type of guys that will make him successful in the America East. I bet he would do the same if he came to GW.
DEA4/26/2011 1:57:36 PM
All three are signed though..
thinker4/26/2011 2:04:40 PM
I think that probably everyone was or would have qualified.
I can't see GW keeping Roland so I can't see Erik coming.
I know Trey Davis was coming specifically to play for Hobbs more so than to play at GW. I would imagine that he and his family would feel pretty mislead right now. I don't know that he had actually submitted a signed LOI yet either. For him it probably depends on whether he actually signed yet or not, how well a new coach sells him, AND does he still have other options. Three unknowns to me. Probably the other Davis - Jonathan is the most likely to come since it was always reported that he was the most interested in the school and coming to DC. But I imagine there's every chance that GW could lose him as well.
Long Suffering Fan4/26/2011 2:11:50 PM
Any recruit that did even a little homework on the school would have known as far back as the early signing period that KH was a coach on the hot seat and should not be surprised or betrayed on what has happened. That is not to say that they will not now reconsider. It is only common sense that Copes will take the lead from his uncle's situation.
seneca4/26/2011 2:18:04 PM
As far as coaches, Roland Houston might just be the most popular assistant coach in college basketball right now. I bet he has muultiple offers to go elsewhere and if Copes isn't admitted he would be free to go as well or he could be released form the LOI. One thing is for certain Roland Houston is going to be just fine no matter what happens. So will Donyell Marshall. I worry more about Collucci and Lockhart at this late date.
Players - if everything breaks badly we could have just 8-9 scholarship players next year. GW needs to name a new coach tomorrow or that number could even dwindle more if anyone transfers. I am assuming that at best we get one of the 3 recruits with T. Davis gone for sure and Copes and J. Davis huge question marks.
Whoever the new coach is the situation is not going to pretty for awhile.
bobo4/26/2011 2:22:58 PM
As for recruiting NBA level talent, Langeran has 1 player, Marqus Blakely, currently on an NBA roster. Not bad for little old UVM.
bobo4/26/2011 2:26:11 PM
Is Roland Houston under contract with GW still? Can he sign elsewhere at any time he chooses?
danjsport4/26/2011 2:39:17 PM
You say things like "the situation will not be pretty for a while." I just don't know whether that is true. This year---with this team--GW appeared to be on the path of "righting the ship." You, and others, stated on numerous occasions that if only kromah was here, the team would be that much better.
Well- unless there are other transfers, everybody but Katuka is returning. Kromah and Mikic will only be sophmores. Edwards appears to be returning. Taylor is returning. Guest is returning. Bynes is returning. Pellom is retruning. Ware is returning. Smith is returning.
Maybe next year stinks- but these are the same players (absent Katuka). What will be very intereesting is to see how Hobbs recruits does under another coach---especially if they bring an "x and o" type coach. Those that said "this team played well they just had a terrible start because Kromah was absent" don't have that argument next year. Virtually the entire team that played is returning. We don't know if the Copes and Davis class comes- but we also don't know who comes with the new coach.
Hobbs righted the ship at GW relatively quickly- he used some penders guys (monroe and tj) and brought in some great classes- lets wait and see what happens.
Lonergan2GW4/26/2011 6:37:05 PM
Lonergan is interviewing with GW as confirmed by Burlington Paper - http://blogs.burlingtonfreepress.com/oncampus/2011/04/26/lonergan-given-permission-to-interview-at-george-washington/
LA Fan4/26/2011 6:37:41 PM
Lonergan given permission to interview at GW:
herve4/26/2011 6:43:09 PM
You get the feeling this is like the mistress who is always asking the married man she's sleeping with to leave his wife and then one day....HE DOES!
ziik the shirtmaker4/26/2011 6:47:32 PM
Yes, Herve, but sometimes he leaves for a second mistress (I did a fair amount of divorce work).
Those folks in New England may not know one George from another. Lonergan may be headed across the river.
SDF4/26/2011 6:51:23 PM
OK, this is where things get touchy: Is there any worse outcome than us interviewing this guy first, hearing crickets, and then hearing he's Mason's next coach? Wouldn't that be like the mistress dumping you for a younger guy after you move into the crappy apartment because the wife kept the kids?
Mentzinger4/26/2011 9:12:48 PM
He has made that team the best program by far, even with a very bad gym and small budget. So Tom Brennan had nothing to do with it? Lonergan's been there like 3 years.
DEA4/26/2011 9:20:07 PM
Who was the coach when they beat Syracuse in the tourney? That was Brennan right
Hatchet Man4/26/2011 9:27:15 PM
Actually, Lonergan has been there six years. And Brennan, while putting together some good seasons at the end, retired with a losing record.
Levinator4/27/2011 2:08:36 AM
This is my favorite thread so far by a long shot. Thinker- thank you for your "breaking news". It does help the board. I appreciate that as we try to settle this huge GW debacle of trying to hire a progressive AD, have tough OOC and then a coach who has both talent in the recruiting as well as the X and O's. Oy vey. We GW alum will never be satisfied.
BM4/27/2011 11:21:46 AM
This was posted to mikelonergan.com yesterday. I suspect it's directed towards people like us.
The MV4/27/2011 11:26:42 AM
One theory as to why KH may not end up at George Mason...their AD Tom O'Connor is good friends with Jack Kvancz. Undoubtedly, JK will be asked all about KH and rather than do what he can to help get Karl another job, JK will start out with one of those "well, there were good things and there were bad things..." type of answer.
bobo4/27/2011 11:46:09 AM
An alternative theory of why KH may not end up at George Mason...he just got fired from a rival school down the Orange Line from GMU. No, it must all be Kvancz's fault.
danjsport4/27/2011 12:29:30 PM
MV- call me crazy- but there were good things and bad things. If somebody asks a reference about a job, I'd hope the person would discuss the qualifications along with the risks...
LA Fan4/28/2011 12:11:21 AM
Doesn't say too much, but you can see the cards lining up for this to happen:
maypoman4/28/2011 10:03:05 AM
GW needs a coach first and a recruiter second. No coach has ever been able to recruit real Blue Chip players to GW and no coach ever will. Larranaga did a pretty good job at Mason by being a coach first and a recruiter second. GW needs to take the same approach.
BM4/28/2011 10:34:35 AM
FWIW, KH's total comp for 2008 (latest numbers available) was $587k. I'm guessing he was making more than $600k by now... or until last week.
herve4/28/2011 10:44:58 AM
rocket4/28/2011 11:07:08 AM
I don't know what the contract says, obviously, but if Karl was released for anything other than cause, he'll certainly have a cushy salary to sit on while he searches for work. Of course, it means that we'll be paying for two coaches next season out of a budget that's I forget how much. Someone posted it not too long ago.
The MV4/28/2011 11:23:12 AM
Rocket, there is a strong likelihood that there is a buyout clause in the contract that states that GW is not liable for the full remaining value of the contract in the event that they would like to make a change. Now, it's conceivable that GW could be paying the full amount as a gesture for ten years of service. However, legally speaking, I believe that what they actually owe would be a lesser, previously negotiated figure.
herve4/28/2011 11:38:05 AM
While I do not know for sure, I'd bet this buy-out is being "privately funded" and not all coming from the Unversity coffers.
maypoman4/28/2011 11:44:25 AM
Karl had one year left at an already negotiated salary. Since he didn't agree to resign and accept a lesser amount, GW owes him that salary. GW can't get out of that because it wants to make a change. This is pure contract law.
rocket4/28/2011 11:48:10 AM
Yup, I hear you. If Hobbs takes another (presumably head) coaching job he owes us money (as Lonergan will owe Vt). If we release Hobbs we will owe him money. I'm just guessing Hobbs's buy out for him taking a job is higher than the reported $75,000 for Lonergan and our buyout of Hobbs is a reasonably hefty portion of his base -- with incentives off the table. I imagine there's some sports or law journal out there that describes all this. If not, some professor should get right on it. Now at big football and basketball schools there's usually some alum or alums who poney up the dough. And we might very well pay Lonergan's buy out. But that just drives the price up and we'll be paying two hefty salaries this coming year.
thinker4/28/2011 12:01:28 PM
Could salary sway Lonergan?
George Washington Colonials
If Vermont coach Mike Lonergan decides to leave the Catamounts for either the George Washington or George Mason job, he's in for a major raise. That much is clear.
According to John A. Fantino of the Burlington Free Press, the three-year deal Lonergan signed in January 2010 indicates his base salary will jump to $189,000 in July and $198,450 next summer if he stays at UVM.
In comparison, Fantino writes, former GM coach Karl Hobbs made in the neighborhood of $500,000 annually, according to the school's student newspaper.
At George Mason, former coach Jim Larranaga was reported paid $700,000 after meeting incentives last year.
It's doubtful that Lonergan would receive those amounts -- Hobbs and Larranaga each had a tenure of at least 10 years -- but if he decides to leave UVM for GMU or GW he can count on a steep raise from his current contract.
- Joe Kaiser
GMU a better job than GW?
George Mason Patriots
Vermont coach Mike Lonergan might be the leading candidate at both George Mason and George Washington, and yesterday we wrote that it appears GW may be the leader for his services.
But is it the better job?
Our own Andy Katz doesn't think so. On Wednesday, Katz wrote about George Mason's numerous advantages over George Washington, looking through the lens of a prospective head coach.
- Joe Kaiser
GMU has many advantages
"At this time, George Mason is a better job than George Washington. Mason has better facilities, a decent chance to be in the NCAAs every season and a conference (Colonial Athletic Association) that is competitive but winnable every season for a school like GMU. The CAA had three teams in the NCAA tournament this season and could be a multiple-bid league again next year with those three and Drexel in contention again.GW has to contend with Xavier, Dayton, Temple and Richmond in the A-10, let alone Rhode Island and UMass.
The Colonials and Patriots (in suburban Fairfax, Va.) share the same D.C. market, but the relevance of GMU vs. GW isn't close. George Washington has had its moments, most recently during the Pops Mensah Bonsu era. But Mason has been much more consistent lately. So now that both jobs are open it will be interesting to see who lands where and how much the pay scale differs. GMU athletic director Tom O'Connor has more experience in hoops than the new GW athletic director, former America East commissioner Patrick Nero. How they go about choosing their next coaches over the next week or so will be intriguing to watch."
Mentzinger4/28/2011 12:10:40 PM
Chester Would4/28/2011 12:14:15 PM
Except, Katzenjammer, that GW automatically gets to PLAY those better teams they are competing with and have a better chance at an at-large resume with proper OOS scheduling since they are in a stronger conference. The relevance of GMU seems based only on their recent success, GW winning and promoting itself better would more that likely would shift that balance back.
maypoman4/28/2011 12:15:51 PM
Hobbs doesn't owe GW anything no matter what happens. He was fired. If Lonergan is still under contract to Vermont and he comes here, there might be a provision in his Vermont contract requiring him to pay Vermont something for breaking his contract.
The MV4/28/2011 12:27:53 PM
Maypoman, I don't want to argue with you about this so I'll leave it like this: in many contracts involving college coaches, there are buyout clauses that protect the school in the event that a coach leaves on his own OR if a coach is released prior to the end of the contract. I have no knowledge of numbers but if KH was to make $525,000 this year before incentives, there would have likely been a clause that suggests that if the school were to make a change, they would owe KH say $400,000 or whatever the negotiated figure is. If there were two years remaining at $525,000 per, perhaps they would owe $700,000 rather than just over $1 million, etc. Coaches agree to this because: a) the dollars are big enough to justify this concession and b) they likely don't think that it will ever happen to them anyway.
Levinator4/28/2011 8:44:45 PM
Mailman has it right and he really shouldn't have to defend his point further. Maypomen made good points regarding Lonergan. Chester Would hit the bail on the head with his point.
Andy Katz- although a very capable and likeable analyst- missed several key reasons why one might choose GW and Nero's vision based on GW's athletics evaluation.
I know posters like Bigfan and DMV and LFO etc have been critical over Kvancz and some more critical just of Hobbs.
It anazes me that posters are still so overly critical of GW admin under knapp as they responded with Nero and then of Nero, who determined once a vision/direction was realized, who might be the best candidate to bring a respectable National championship caliber team to GW yearly.
So what if Mike accepts GW over GMU? Did Katz just highlight we got a fantastic coach who had exceptional opportunities yet still chose GW?
Folks - we need a coach who knows the x and O's and can recruit locally and nationally. We needed an AD who can realize a new vision for GW cause the way we were doing it - was wrong for awhile. Changes happened too little too late c
It's up to U's , the fanbase to fucking show up to games, feed off of theae changes and generate positive excitement on and off campus. And then- go and meet the decision makers if you don't feel you're being heard.
The MV4/29/2011 9:20:11 AM
One thing is for certain: If Lonergan accepts the GW position, it will be publicly stated that George Mason never offered him their job.