You're telling me you can't draw something up to deny their best FT shooter the ball on an out-of-bounds play, twice in the last 1:29? Then you foul him under 1:00 to go with :21 run off the shot clock, down 3? Then you can't collect a layup off a missed free throw?

This is turning out to be one of the worst seasons in recent memory.  Let's just say it - GW stinks right now.  I didn't see the whole game, just a part of it on video.  But I don't see a very good basketball team out there.  I'm sure the debate will resume quickly here about how much of it is on the team and how much is Lonergan's coaching. 

Right now I'm pretty shocked about how bad GW looks.  The first half was every bit as bad as JMU - maybe even worse in some ways.  I don't know how this team won 10 games in the A-10 last year.  They cannot break 60 points a game.  They cannot put the ball in the basket.

You're telling me you can't draw something up to deny their best FT shooter the ball on an out-of-bounds play, twice in the last 1:29? Then you foul him under 1:00 to go with :21 run off the shot clock, down 3? Then you can't collect a layup off a missed free throw?

I saw part of the 2nd half on TV, so i don't have a full view, but it's strange to me -- there's some good moments, but they can't put it all together. The team had 17 steals or something, that is great. But no points. They miss layups. They'll make good mid-range shots, but don't seem to try taking them often. I don't get it. 

It must be as frustrating for the players--they aren't playing a fun loose style but they aren't seeing the rewards for good fundamental baskeball either.

 Numbers that jump right out at me.  Kromah and Taylor shoot a combined 10-33.  GW shoots 1-9 from the three point line.  9 assists for the game for GW, on 19 baskets.  Their big guy, Moore, has 19 points and 24 rebounds.  Mostly by positioning himself close to the basket and laying it in.  Our big guy, Edwards, has 0 points and 4 rebounds.  ML started Pellom, but Dave was totally incapable of guarding Moore, who for most of the first half outscored GW.  Then, at the start of the second half, Pellom is again guarding Moore, with the same result.  Huh???   One one level, Kromah played a decent game, as in 5 assists, 5 rebounds and a whopping 9 steals.  Those are legitimately good numbers.  But my God, Lasan, what is with your shot selection.   Putting your head down, burrowing towards the basket and throwing up a prayer is not a good play, even if they do go in every once in a while.  We need you to score consistently, but we can't have you shooting 6-18.  The saddest point of this latest embarassing loss is that UAB looked really bad, with the exception of Moore.  The committed an incredible 23 turnovers, many of which can be attributed to GW defense and many more that were just sloppy or bad basketball.  Yet at about 11-12 minutes into the game, GW had 6 or 7 points and was shooting 15%.   

Lonergan's comment on the losing streak...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=teamreports-2011-ncaab-gac

 The first half revealed a team unable to have any offensive skills. Shooting was aweful, penetrating the defense was unsuccessful,  there were no offensive rebounds, particularly when UAB missed foul shots, GW 's foul shooting was incompetent, lay ups were missed. No three point shots were made.There was nearly a ten minute lull of no points. Frustration  was expressed through out the Smith Center. Finally, at the lowest ebb I ever witnessed after following GW for over  4 decades , were fans sitting in the blue seats making fun of the player's ability and lack of success. The GW faithful began to mock the program, players coaches and all. I guess this is what "rock bottom "  looks like. How very sad.

Give me shit all the fuck you'd like.

Copes, Copes, Copes.  Think we didn't miss him tonight?  Wait a minute, there's Cameron Moore scoring another easy two in the paint while we stand by and watch him.  We have NO ANSWERS for any skilled big man who knows how to score in the paint.  I agree, enough about the mentioning of Copes.  But that doesn't make this huge problem go away.  And I do have to wonder with the recruits coming in whether we will show any improvement in this area next season.

Whatever we did right this evening came from our defense around the perimeter, most notably Lasan in the 1-3-1.  Our offense came from our defense.  We scored in transition.  Or, we didn't score.  Period.

Here's tonight's observation about the flex...nobody seems to be running it too aggressively.  We look like we are sleepwalking our way through that offense.  No hard picks, short of Mikic at the end and that wasn't within the flex.  No sharp cutting.  Lots of guys trotting, half-heartedly going through the motions.  Junior high teams look more determined running an offense.

Wait a minute, there's David Pellom arguing with someone.  One of his coaches, a referee, someone.  David, putting your impressive FG% aside, you are not talented enough to continue behaving like either a knucklehead or a spoiled brat.  Stop whining and play your game, please.

Moral victory? Please.  The only things you prove when you start consistently falling behind by double digits only to make a furious run that ends up falling short is that you were likely good enough not to fall behind by double digits in the first place and that you are able to come together as a team once there is a sense of urgency.    Here's a thought....try playing with a sense of urgency for 40 minutes.  Really, pretend you are down 10-0 to start the game and go from there.

Upset with Lasan's shot selection?  I'm not.  That young man is a winner who wants it.  You're barking up the wrong tree going after that kid.  There isn't a single player we need on the court more than Lasan and that includes Tony.  Tony, start taking the 15 foot jumpers with more regularity.  You're not getting the calls when driving.  Nemanja..best game of the year tonight.  Jabari...hustles his butt off but is just outmatched.  The rest of you need to get in the layup line and start taking that drill more seriously.  Then practice your 3 footers and your 5 footers.  I'm not sure there has ever been a team in the history of this sport who misses more short shots than this one.

A very crappy night.

 Well said MV. The flex must be learned but it's completely mechanical right now, no fluidity at all.  Tony was extremely disappointing but Kromah looked like he had real fire.  Nemanja looked better but not good, at least relative to last year.  There's no question he's haveing trouble dealing witth spotlight.  But ultimately the story is that these are not ML's kids (for the most part) and they are not bought into his system.  Unless something changes very quickly, it'll be a long year and we need new blood to win.  If we didn't force all the turnovers, we'd have lost by 25 or 30.  So, I guess that's a bright spot.

 Disagree with you on Lasan's shot selection.  Can't have someone shooting 18 times and msising 12 of them.  One base line shot was so hard, he caught his own air ball no the other side of the basket.  Other's were simply bad shots.  Many of his 9 steals was followed by his missing a wild shot.  Look, I think overall Lasan had more positives then negatives.  However, he came in to the game shooting in the mid 30s percent and then shot 6-18  This team is too offensively challenged to survive that.  As for Copes, maybe he would have helped, but GW is more than one front line player away.

I am not in the crowd here (ok I think it is 2 people) who were upset when Hobbs was fired.  The program had been stuck for the past few seasons and I didn't see anything too promising on the horizon (yes, Copes was coming, but in the larger sense, I didn't think GW was on a path to bigger and better things).  I did kind of want Joe Dooley, because he has amazing recruiting connections up and down the east coast, and he is a GW alum, and I thought that would be kind of cool.  When they hired Lonergan, I didn't fully get hiring a coach from the America East conference, so I was concerned about his recruiting abilities a little.  But the admin seemed really into him, and hes DC connections, so I was fine with it.  I felt better when he hired his assistants, all of which seemed like great hires.

But, with all of that said, I do think Lonergan is pretty disappointing as a coach so far.  For the 6 straight losses leading up to tonight, I put just about all of the blame on the team.  But when a team loses 7 straight, and opens games playing in a very lackluster and unmotivated way, a coach has to share the blame for that.  When an offense cannot get to 60 points a game, the coach has to show up somewhere in the blame for that too.  A team cannot look this bad and have the coach sit out of the picture untouched in terms of what is wrong.  The talent level we have is a part of the problem, but a coach who cannot connect with the players he has is part of the problem too.

Lonergan will get at least 2 to 3 years to show what he can do, as he should.  But Nero, Chernak and the others have to be asking, what is going on here?  This isn't what we signed up for.  I will hang in there with Lonergan through the next couple of seasons no matter what, but honestly I do wonder if GW hired the right guy.  I sure do hope he proves that thought wrong. 

I give Mikic a lot of credit.  He obviously is doing what the coach AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD have demanded -- play like a big forward.  So he could be a 45% three point shooter on a team that can't make layups, but few plays are run to use him as a three-point shooter.  He went to the basket, he made some shots, he got rebounds.  He made some of his free throws.  Last year he played in an offense that, although I don't think it did much for the team in general, was obviously very suited to his outside shooting ability.  This year that's been abandoned.    I thought he did great tonight while most of the team filled the air with garbage.  Taylor can't shoot.  Ware can't shoot.  Kromah played well generally but he can't shoot.  Kopriva can't make a layup.  Smith comes in takes a couple of wild shots and gets benched. Etc.

MV, we obviously could've used a player like Copes is reputed to be, but he's not here and he isn't going to be.  We obviously have a huge problem.  I don't see the posts about Jabari's chance at the shotblocking record lately.  Certainly that's not the answer either. I do agree that we need Kromah's aggressiveness even if he forces shots and makes careless TOs.  Where else is the push coming from?  I also agree with your verdict on "the moral victory."  We've already proven we can make some noise after we let ourselves get buried early on.  We need to win.   

I think Kromah was 2-6 in the first half with a missed layup and mostly open looks on his jumpers.  He pressed in the 2nd half but that was probably because the whole team was struggling so much offensively he felt he needed to force the action.

I just don't understand how this team can miss so many open looks.  Taylor's shot is the mid-range jumper but he could not buy that basket tonight.  Mikic missed again from distance but at least took it to the hole and got fouled.  But what's wrong with Duane Smith?  Awful.  Looks like he has absolutely no confidence in his shot and just makes some weak attempt to go into trafic and throw up a prayer.  Biggest disapointment from a personel standpoint so far this season has been Smith's terrible play.

GW had actually led in rebounding in 6 of their last 8 games before tonight.  The whole team got outrebounded by Moore.  Outside of The Second Mile ranch, rarely will you ever see a player abused as badly as Pellom was manhandled by Moore. 

 Hate to say I told you so-

This team is a bigger disappointment than the team that got stomped in Hawaii because this group has more talent. There hasn't been a GW team that has underachieved like this in a long long time.

Thoughts on the game-

-OUr seniors give us absolutely nothing. Tony is no exaggeration one of the most dissapointing players in the country. He went from a borderline great point guard to a guy who would not play on half of the teams in this league. Aaron and Jabari seem like good guys but they are too flawed to count on honestly.

- Even though he didn't shoot well Lasan played hard and decently tonight. If he gives us 5 rebounds a 5 assists a night it's hard to complain. He is the team's leading rebounder for christ sake. Don't quit on him because he has the potential to be very good and is still trying hard as hell(can't say the same for some of his teammates)

- This group is devoid of scorers, I think they need to find the leading scorer in Juco and get them here because we have more than one guy on this team who cannot score at the D1 level. I can't blame the coaches for that, that is on the guys who recruited them and the players themselves for putting NO time in in the offseason. 

- Speaking of that it seems we have to have one of the weakest team in the country. Bowie State came in and outmuscled us. I don't know who exactly is responsible for that but that needs to change and fast. We will never have a shot against a good team this year because even if we play good d for 30 seconds, they'll get an offensive rebound because we're too damn weak. 

- Its becoming clear the core next year will be Lasan, Nemanja, Armwood, hopefully David and Dwayne although who knows. Everybody seems to hype up Kopriva as the "fundamentals" guy but he can't consistently make a layup and gets abused by any good forward. Looks like an America East recruit to me. 

- Clearly nothing will happen with the coaches but it still looks as if Lonergan is in over his head. 17 wins is 17 wins. 10 A10 wins is 10 A10 wins. Can this team even with 2 games in conference? If URI and Fordham weren't so bad I wouldn't be sure. 

- 

You try and analyze it on a basketball level, but the breakdown at this point is so so severe and the team so dysfunctional that it is more than X's and O's.

We make every team, JMU, Loyola, UAB, look like one of Red's championship teams in the first half, with great shooting, zippy passes that actually go toward the basket and impressive free throw shooitng. Then, Lonergan threatens to pull their scholarship, appeals to their masculinity, pulls his hair and weeps, whatever, to make the starting five realize that it is probably a good idea to play defense. A mad scramble ensues where superior athleticism and actual caring for much of a half cuts the deficit to a point that a reasonable fan hopes the jinx is broken. Then Tony throws the ball to the bench in an out of bounds play, or someone is called for a touch foul after head-butting has been allowed most of the game,or we cleverly run down the shot clock when behind or have to foul a 99.9999 percent free throw shooter who proceeds to put us out of our misery.

Meanwhile, there is an inability to put the ball in the basket from even a foot away that defies any reason. It wouldn't take a Johnny Lee intramural team to shoot better. A team of donkeys with blinders could do better with sheer luck (which is how some shots by Tony, Lasan and others look like, going to the basket and just tossing something in the vicinity).

Gentleman whom we share seats with suggested a sports psychologist. It has to be some psychological thing. They aren't the best players or shooters, but most of the team, with exceptions best not discussed, has shown at least some ability to play D-1 basketball (and JMU is not really Duke). so it boggles the mind. It's like they are collective head cases when it comes to shooting the basketball. At one point in the USAB game, we were shooting 15 percent. Seriously, I think my seatmate is right: a sports psychologist is in order.

 Actually, Big Fan, I think your seatmate hits the nail on the head.  The team is not good, but it is not nearly as bad as its been playing.  I don't think it is the game plan aspect of the coaching either.  Even though our shot selection is not the greatest, overall I think we are getting good shots that just aren't going in.  I also don't think its because the players aren't trying hard or they don't care.  I just think they are tight.  Playing loose vs. playing tight makes all the difference in the world when shooting, especially  free throws which I think every player on the team is capable of making (except maybe Jabari)..   Some things can't be fixed.  We simply did not have a player on the team capable of stopping Moore.  Poor David didn't stand a prayer, but ML opted for Pellom's offense over jabari's defense to start the game, so what happened was that Pellom scored a couple of quick baskets but was totally manhandled.  But with a team as offensively challenged as this one, it is hard to justify Edwards on the Court.  But back to my point of it being "in their heads".  Perhaps the coaching staff is a bit to blame for this in having the players too tight to do what they are capable of doing.     Add too that the mentality of losing, that "oh no, here it comes" feeling that we all have sitting in the stands every game that comes with a long losing streak.  Don't get me wrong...this is not a good team.  But I know that Ware, Taylor, Smith, etc are better than what we have been seeing.  So, Big Fan, maybe you need to ask your friend for the name of that psychologist   As for Kromah, I am seeing improvement in all areas except the shooting.   Defense has picked up, turnovers are down, he is getting assists, steals, etc.   Hopefully Big Fan's shrink (along with some better shot selection) will cure that.  

My thoughts on the game:

1.  Number of the night:  5.  That's the amount of minutes that Dwayne Smith played.  This is utterly ridiculous.  He is at best the 2nd best player on the team and at worst the 3rd best.  He should be playing 25+ minutes.  If he did, he'd score 10+, have 8+ rebounds (3-4 of which are offensive rebounds), and play tough D.  Not sure what it is, but Longeran doesn't seem to like Smith. 

2.  I sat close to the bench for the first time this year.  I learned several things.

My thoughts on the game:

1.  Number of the night:  5.  That's the amount of minutes that Dwayne Smith played.  This is utterly ridiculous.  He is at best the 2nd best player on the team and at worst the 3rd best.  He should be playing 25+ minutes.  If he did, he'd score 10+, have 8+ rebounds (3-4 of which are offensive rebounds), and play tough D.  Not sure what it is, but Longeran doesn't seem to like Smith. 

2.  I sat close to the bench for the first time this year.  I learned several things. 

What were those things you learned sitting close to the bench, Pacman? Just a tease?

D Smith was the worst player on the floor when he was in the game last night.  Just useless on offense and not active on defense.  I don't really get it since he's been a better player in the past.  Refuses to shoot a jumper.  Tries to bull his way to the basket but is too small and not strong enough to get off a decent shot and the coach needs to pull him out again. Smith also doesn't seem to know the offense (not having practiced it at all during his recovery).   He's a shell of himself right now and a liability. Hopefully he can turn it around soon.

The mistery of this slide is that GW has been getting open looks.  Taylor's missing shots he always made in the past, as is Kromah and Mikic.  I guess DEA would conclude Lonergan's America East aura is rubbing off on the players and their playing down to his previous level of competition....except those Vermont teams would kill this GW team just as his UVM team smacked around Hobbs' GW squad. 

My thoughts on the game:

Seems like its first about ML struggling to coach to the talent he has which produces all sorts of questions.  Does he make more of the choices the previous staff would because your older players are more comfortable? If you do that what does that do to the learning curve for the future? How much of this trouble is the new staff not reaching or teaching these guys? Are any players being obstinate? Are some players being asked to do stuff they cannot do? Are they allowed to shoot and rebound only in the last 10 minutes of the game? Is it the case of too many guys with the same size and skill set?  Is it simply a lack of talent?

Other Thoughts:

1. I am stunned at how sluggish and unprepared they are at the start of games?  Does the team practice ok and say they get it or does the staff see no options to what they try to do?

2. Is it trust or communication.  I agree that they appear nearly frozen by thinking instead of playing.

3. This team just can't shoot, which as FQ has said creates or solves a lot of problems.

4. What the freak are they going to do at the point next year?

5. Are the GW uniforms sent to the Devil's laundry? Because how else do you explain years and years of not making free throws?

I expected some guys to struggle this year under a new regime, but I expected a better X and O guy to allow more guys to do better. You know the benfits of a new voice, but Wow this is awful.  It is not that it can't be fixed I just don't see how.

 Hey Pacman, don't say anything bad about Lonergan. The board  police will come over and smack you down. We can lose 20 in a row but it's the players, the arena, the ball, the concessions, the uniforms but never the coach. 

Pacman, agree on all of your points, particularly the delayed playcalls.  It made me realize that I took certain Hobbsian game management for granted.  Never imagined I'd say that.  Disappointing... coach needs to be critically evaluating his own in-game performance in addition to the teams.  But team needs to keep spirits up, "relax" as others have intoned, and get ready for Delaware St.

Agree Fred that the team appears to be thinking instead of playing on the offensive end -- at least when when trying to run the set offense -- but on the defensive end and in transition some fo the decisions we make are simply bad ones - which shows me they are not thinking at those times.  Ware's play towards the end of the game is a perfect example of not thinking.  I think with about 1:30 to go Kromah hits a shot to bring us within 3 points.  Ware then fouls when over playing on defense and to exacerbate that foul fails to box out the shooter after thier shooter misses the second free throw.  As a result, UAB gets the rebound and after running more time off the clock makes a bucket so we go from down 3 to down 6 just like that.   The decision-making in transition also was dubious at times as we faild to convert on many of the turnovers UAB made when we had the advantage.  I also don't understand why ML has TT throw the ball in when we are under our basket.  Last night he threw the ball away again towards the end of the game when trying to get the ball in bounds.  He did it last game too at a critical time when he threw it off Dave Pelloms leg.  I also think our execution out of a team-called time out remains poor.  I briefly went through the last few box scores and noted that it seems to me to be a rare occurrence when we have success out of a team-called time out.  I also agree with the poster who commenetd upon GW's lack of strength.  While GW has never been, at least IMO, a strong or physical team, our lack of physical strength was quite evident last evening.  maybe the addition of Armwood will mask that shortcoming next year -- although he too is slightly built -- but this year we will really struggle in that area.  Finally, even if Armwood is the inside presence we need and the recuits are all better than exected, without a point guard we will look like UAB did last evening turning the ball over.  In sum, barring an unforseen JUCO coming into the fold, I don't see things getting that much better until 2012-2013 season.  I hope I am wrong.    Anyways, wish everyone a happy new year.

A few follow-ups: first, I don't think this is a function of lackluster starts as I believe La Fan surmised.  I am very much in the camp that this is all about the team pressing, playing too tight.  There are too may shots going in and out or rolling around the rim and then falling out to think otherwise.  By contrast, with about a minute to play, GW desperately needed a 3.  Tony pushed the break and saw he had Lasan on his right.  Tony drove the lane looking like he might shoot but knowing full well that he'd be passing to an open Lasan.  Lasan knew he was getting the pass.  Tony put the ball in a perfect spot.  Without hesitation, Lasan caught the pass, squared his body, and buried the 3.  My point is that this was so instinctive that there was no time to think or worse, overthink what was about to happen.  It was a perfect play.  I mention this because this type of "don't think, just play" mindset has been desperately missing from this team.  Is Lonergan giving them too much to learn?  Is he not giving them enough individual freedom?  

Last week, I posted about a self fulfilling prophecy and this psychological principle continues to be on display at the Smith Center.  Sports psychologist?  If that what it takes, go for it.  However, it is ultimately up to Mike Lonergan and his staff to get this team to play without all of this excess pressure.  As hard as it may be for some of you to believe, this is not a talent problem.  It's a problem that has invading the minds of everyone on this team.  It's time to send the message to these players....relax, stay loose, and play your game.

Next, Pacman, I think you are possibly mistaken if you're talking about the Kromah foul with under 30 seconds left.  First, I disagreed with the decision to play defense and not foul (I would have fouled someone who wasn't a 95% free throw shooter early in the possession to extend the game) although you can make a case either way.  (I believe we were down 4 and not 3 at the time, which makes a huge difference.)  Your statement suggests that Lonergan told them not to foul and then changed his mind.  Well, based on Lonergan's reaction to the foul (which came with around 12 seconds left on the shot clock), I don't believe he called for that foul at all. Or, you are correct and he was furious at WHO Lasan fouled.

Lastly, I'd like to ask for a vote for funniest moment of the night: a) Jabari so badly overplaying a UAB player, forcing him to go left, that the player spun around and had an uncontested layup with his right hand from the left side; or b) the "vocal" fan in the endzone who continued to yell as a security officer was asking him not to (further compounded by the fact that the fan looked like he should have been the security officer and vice versa).  Since a) was kind of sad too, I'm going with b).

Nice strawman DEA. How about giving a new coach a little patience and time to get his own recruits into the program? Especially when next year's class looks so promising.

Yes he should have time to get his own recruits but its also about adapting to the players you have in your first year - you can say that about any other program w a first year coach. This program did not have a bare cupboard - bottom lne  - there are numerous issues that come into play -but the main responsibility relies on the coach. Tell that to the senIors who have never seen GW in ncaa tourney game, yet alone win an a10 tourney game

Wow.  All I can say is wow.  I have about two more games left in me before I quit and only come to the games out of a sense of pride and boredom. 

MV, the sequence with the fan in the endzone was hilarious, and I agree about the juxtaposition between the fan and the security guard.  The fan looked like he could've used the guard as a javelin and launched him across the building. 

Jabari did have another moment where he launched a pass really hard, to nobody, in the endzone.  There was a ballboy sitting there and he did look open. 

DEA, I agree, Lonergan is definitely off his game and appears too uptight himself.  As a gentleman I spoke with at halftime said, he's not missing the shots, but it is his job to make these guys realize they can make them.  My guess is his inclination is to use the Delaware State game as an opportunity to drill, drill, drill the system into our team.  I'd go the other way and say, hey, it's a game off, anyone who runs my plays right gets a gold star, otherwise, you know you can beat these guys, now go do it, and leave it with that. Since this isn't the NBA and you can't just wholesale replace your roster, you're always going to have continuity, and you need returning players to be at least on speaking terms with you if not salesmen for your system.  He needs to find a way pretty quick to have at least most of them going in the same direction.

Yes he should have time to get his own recruits but its also about adapting to the players you have in your first year - you can say that about any other program w a first year coach. This program did not have a bare cupboard - bottom lne  - there are numerous issues that come into play -but the main responsibility relies on the coach. Tell that to the senIors who have never seen GW in ncaa tourney game, yet alone win an a10 tourney game

  "First, the players don't seem to like Lonergan.  In fact, they seem to hate him.  Please explain, Pacman.  Was it body language?  Were things said?  Did they confide in you?   If in fact the players do hate Lonergan because he is too touch  on them, that is another symptom of a losers mentality...of which this team needs to shed.

Also, Dwayne Smith very well may been the second best player on the team last year.  But have you seen him play this year? He has been horrible.

This team has no front court.  Not even close.  I understand the urgency for a point guard, but improving the front line is our biggest need.  We may be able to survive Savage at the point. 

Of late I can even see Kromah at the point  (his turnovers are down, his assists and passing have been excellent.  Also Bynes, so long as he is never called upon to shoot or dribble.  He is probably not quick enough to guard many points, however, but that is curable by not having him defend the point).   To post significant improvement, we absolutely have to get bigger and stronger up front and add scorers.

We will have at least 5 new players (1 transfer, 3 current recruits and 1 recruit in the oven) coming in.  I would be very surprised if 1 or 2 players don't transfer, which would bring in some more help.  Add to that Smith, Kromah, Pellom and Kopriva and you should have a good nucleous.  This will not be the same team next year as it is this year.

I really suck at proofing/editing.  My last post was meant to say that Kromah may not be able to guard the opposing point, not Bynes.

The bad news is this reminds me almost exactly of last year's OOC.

The good news is that last year TT and Smith got hot and the result was a much better conference season. Especially given that we're getting open shots, there is reason to have optimism that history can repeat, though it sure seems bleak right now.

LSF:

• When I said "the players don't seem to like Lonergan.  In fact, they seem to hate him" I was talking about my own perception from sitting behind the bench.  I have no inside knowledge nor have I talk to any players nor did I base my statement on any oral communication.  With that being said, it's clearly evident (to me, at least) from the players' body language that they have no respect for ML.  No one looks him in the eye.  They could care less about what he says.  Some barely acknowledge his presence.  It looks like he's just a buzzing nat in their ear.
• To answer a few others, yes, D-Smith has struggled this year.  I think we can attribute that to two things (1) his injury caused him to miss practice/games resulting in a slow start (2) the fact that he isn't getting minutes.  Anyone who's played bball competitely knows that you need time to get into the flow of the game.  You can't expect to play him for 5 minutes a game and expect him to get anything going.  
  • When he does get minutes, he produces.  Against Bradley, D-Smith got 19 minutes, 6 points on 3-8 shooting with 6 reb.  Against Cuse, he got 12 minutes, 10 points on 4-6 shooting with 5 reb.  If he was given TT type minutes, he'd have a double double EVERY game.
  • Last year, in only 23 minutes per game, he average 9 PPG, 40% FG percentage, and 5.1 RPG (2nd on the team).  You can't tell me he's gotten worse.  GIVE HIM SOME MINUTES!!!!
• Another interesting stat I just found.  Early in the year, Mikic was one of the highest 3 point FG percentage shooting team in the NCAA.  Now, he's fourth ON THE TEAM behind Taylor, Kromah, and Bynes (and this isn't counting Pellom who is 1-1). 

Smith needs to see more floor so he can settle into his game.

- Maybe the players don't like him because every chance he gets he reminds the whole world that the team sucks and the only thing that can save him is his "great recruiting."

- I find it funny that last year when we had a universally ranked top 50 player nobody wants to wait for a recruiting class but now with one decently ranked point guard and two guys who haven't even been ranked by anybody all of a sudden recruiting will save us.

 - Why is Kopriva a part of the core? Where has he shown that he is an A10 caliber player?

- The brutal truth is there won't be that many transfers because for many of these players, there's nowhere to go. There is also only so many players Lonergan can push out without a full fledged mutiny. He already pushed out Warren. We may see him do it with one or two more players but the school should not allow him to push out everybody because he refuses to coach them. These unpaid student athletes made a committment to the school, followed through with that comittment, and shouldn't be punished because our "coach" refuses to adopt his style, which may or may not work, to them. 

- I will hold off on making brash judgements until conference play but this hire is looking like more and more of a bust already. It's funny that the Lonergan lackeys are holding up his recruiting as his saving grace, as if Joe Dooley would not have been able to bring in better players. The guy recruited David West to ECU for gods sakes. 

DEA- You say that he reminds the whole world the team sucks---but why is that a bad thing?  the team does suck- the team does lack depth--the team has no true front court presence.  The coach is....honest.  I've never understood this--what is the point of meeting with the media if all the coach eill feed are cliches and non-answers.  The point of the media is to convey what the coach is thinking, what the coach feels, and to allow us an inside assessment about the information we can assess from the outside.  So when KH said "this team is underachieving," regardless of record or how well they played- it was insulting, because it was just untrue.  When KH said "this team is young," despite being one of the older teams, it was insulting.  ML takes the opposite approach- he tells us what he is feeling.  if Mikic is playing like garbage, the coach tells us that--it's nice to hear something honest.  If Kromah isn't playing defense well, why is it bad that the coach says so?  If the players can't handle being called out for how they are playing, they shouldn't be playing.

Next- the thing about waiting for the next recruiting class for KH was....there were plenty of other recruiting classes to evaluate.  Those more recent classes included Miles Beatty, Xavier Alexander, Matt Albitron, Chris Fitzgerald, Tim Johnson, Cheyenne Moore, Wynton Witherspoon, Herm Opoku, and others.  Waiting for another class, with a top 50 recruit committed because of his uncle ,didn't resolve teh question as to whether Hobbs would be able to continue to capably recruit at GW.  Hobbs had years beind him (good ones and bad) and recruits behind him (good ones and bad), that allowed one to reasonably assess whether or not the bad outweighed the good.  Many on here--and apparently the administration--felt the bad outweighed the good.

I think that ML deserves to have at least 1...and probably 2..recruiting classes on his roster before we start talking about his overall ability.  To be clear- I think criticizing ML is fine.  His team has stunk.  But I think he deserves some time to put things together--he wasn't left with a whole lot--whether you want to admit it or not (I see that you say the team has talent, and then describe all the players who can't shoot adn can't really play).  Lots of posts say--"there are open shots, th eteam just isn't hitting them."  The open shots, seems to indicate a system that is getting players looks--the missing them---that should fall on the players.  

Maybe Joe Dooley would have brought in better players--maybe not.  i don't know- it's a hypothetical argument.  I'll hold off until I see what some of ML's recruits can do.  

One more note---comparison between the "talent" on the team that  played in Hawaii and this team:

Players on that team included: Damian Hollis, Rob Diggs, Tony Taylor, Aaron Ware, Jabari Edwards, Wytherspoon, and Travis King.

While younger, three of those guys are still on this team.  Damian Hollis and Rob Diggs were far more talented than any of these guys. 

 Two things- 

I like honesty as much as the next guy but he has been blaming guys and devaluing the talent on this roster since the season began. After the VCU loss, when we were 4-3 with all three losses coming to tournament teams, he was bashing this group. How about managing the psyche of the players, coaches have to do that in the NBA, is it too much to ask for a coach to do that with a bunch of 19 year olds? If Nero was interviewed tomorrow and said Lonegan has done a shitty job coaching this year and he was actively searching for a new coach would he be happy about it? There's what's good for the fans and what's good for the team and they're often completely separate things.

- I was a big Hobbs supporter but I'm not sorry he's gone. Since Omar-gate he has has been a mostly subpar recruiter. There are two ways to look at last season though and either one makes him look good. Either we over-achieved(a credit to his coaching) or we played up to how good we should have been. Fourth in the A10 is fourth in the A10. We'll be lucky to get into the top 10 this year! With a more talented team(subsituting Kromah and Kopriva for Katuka is a talent gain) there is absolutely no excuse for us losing to the Bradley, JMU and a very bad UAB team. The players deserve blame but this same group won last year. 

I will agree DEA that there is legitimate reasons to fault the coach for not getting the most out of his players.  But really,  where are you coming up with some of this stuff that you are posting?

"Maybe the players don't like him because every chance he gets he reminds the whole world that the team sucks and the only thing that can save him is his "great recruiting."

Where is this coming from?  Criticism of a team for not rebounding, shooting well, etc, is hardly saying the team sucks.  And again, why do you think the team does not like him.  When the same core of players have extended losing streaks year after year, maybe, just maybe it is the players as opposed to the coach?

"when we had a universally ranked top 50 player nobody wants to wait for a recruiting class but now with one decently ranked point guard and two guys who haven't even been ranked by anybody all of a sudden recruiting will save us."

Are you really missing the point that it has been a half dozen years since KH had a good recruiting class?  Also, the reports I am reading on Savage go beyond saying he is decent.  As for the other two, the reports arelikewise good.  As for Copes, his numbers at Mason, in case you haven't notice, fall short of spectacular.

- Why is Kopriva a part of the core? Where has he shown that he is an A10 caliber player? 

The kid has played less than one half season his freshman year and has not yet played his first A-10 game, yet you already have declared him to not be an A10 calibre.  For  that matter, then, based upon early numbers, Copes has not shown that he is a CAA calibre player.

I can go on and on about your post, but I don't have all day.  I would like to know, however, your source of information that Warren was pushed off the team.  To make room for  whom?

 Warren info on being pushed off is wrong.

LSF, there will be new guys coming next year, and I think Savage and Armwood will provide immediate help.  But I can't help but wonder what the pre-season rags will say about GW with the loss of TT next season.  I think we will be picked last in the A-10, or maybe a tie with Fordham for last.  I think the overall talent level may rise a little next year, but will it be a dramatic improvement?  Do the players hate Lonergan, like Pacman is saying he saw?  And if so why?

I tend to look at GW basketball with rose colored glasses.  I think we will be in the hunt for an NCAA tourny bid more years than not (I need to stop with that crazy thinking).  But we are bordering on the low points of the John Kuester days right now.  We are not in for a 1-27 season, but with all of the marketing and fixing up the Smith Center, to have a team performing at this level is just dismal.

This reminds me of the 10 game losing streak during one of TJ Thompson's years where, at one point, I couldn't imagine GW being able to beat anyone in the country.

 It was the 2002 season. GW eventually pulled themselves together a bit and came up with some decent wins to keep a bad season from becoming horrible.

 And a touch more research shows Hobbs had both 10 and 12 game losing streaks in his first few years at GW.

Look some of the UVM fans came on this board and said ML was tough on his guys in the media and he has had some hard and pointed things to say, but after the JMU game in Orton's gamer he clearly put it on him and his staff.  I just don't see his comments as non-stop tossing the team under the bus. However I understand for every mild comment I'm sure someone here could come up with a tough one.  I would be unhappy if he turns out to be an unremitting hard ass whose just busts on his players, but in the ever accelating arms race of college athletics the goal has to be winning. 

As an STH for about 20 years all this losing really wears me out and I am upset things are so bad right now and I sure as hell do not KNOW that ML will be geat.  I just think this program  was in rough shape despite last seasons late push; so unless he is Gimlestob Part 2 he needs 3 to 4 years.

 A lot of  folks complained because the old regime was too comfortable. Well this is what unconfortable looks like at GW.  Sharp words and elbows.

Well, I will give ML 2 recruiting classes before making an opinion on him.  As stated in prior threads, he is using KH's players brought in for KH's system which is drastically different than ML's.

However, ML can not be referenced in the old saying "he can beat you with his players, and then take your players and beat you with yours."

I was at the game last night.  I carefully watched ML's courtside manner with the team.  I am not sure what he does in practice but in the game, I didn't see him throwing temper tantrums or yelling at them for their mistakes. 

GW got alot of good looks at the basket, but shots were not falling.  Why can't we make free throws?   What I observed was the lack of intensity until the last 5 minutes of the game.  UAB dominated inside.  They hit some key 3 pointers to dampen our run, AND made free throws.  Their point guard looked inexperienced and made alot of unforced turnovers.

Other thoughts:

1) LASAN needs to get his confidence back.   His shots were not falling in the beginning.  He can rattle off the points but must work at finishing better.  He can get to the basket at will, just got to finish.  I would like to see him go in the lane and dunk over one of the opponents big guys.

2) TT needs to take ownership of the team and push them to play harder...beginning at tip off.  IF he wants to make it to the next level he has to put the team on his back and turn the situation around.   I would like to see him huddle the team during games to help inspire.  He is not showing the leadership skills that a point guard MUST HAVE. 

3) Mikic did show more of an offensive game with his going to the basket and drawing fouls.  He has to be more than a 1 trick pony.  I was starting to question why he got so many minutes.

4) Kopriva is just not ready.  I think he will be a great A-10 player maybe by Jr. or Sr. year. 

5) Pellom can score, get the ball in to him.  However must work on defense.

6) Dwayne Smith did not play enough minutes so can not comment on his game last night.  I think Kopriva's minutes should go to him. 

7) Aaron Ware could become the X-Factor.   I would like to see him get more minutes. 

8) Jabari is not a scorer.  Just get over it.  He is a good rebounder and shot blocker.

9)  A massive exodus of players will HURT the recruiting biz.

10) The team is better than their record. 

17-13, 10-17, 11-17.  Coach K's record at Duke during his first three years.

We're a lot closer to Mr. Ramsey's prophecy than most of us think.

Good thing DEA wasn't at Duke when Coach K got there becauase Krzyzewski would never have lasted to his 4th season, especially as a coach previously comming from a small-time program like Army.  In fact, DEA would never have hired Coach K in the first place.  GW sucked in Hobbs first 2 years and even though DEA was in the Hobbs bunker until its last days, I doubt DEA would have stuck with that completely unproven coach during those early years.  DEA was probaly in junior high back then so maybe he wasn't paying much attention.

Mike K referenced the old saying: "he can beat you with his players, and then take your players and beat you with yours."  Do you know who that was referring to? Yes, Bear Bryant.  ESPN had a good movie about the Bear and his first year at Texas A&M.  Players didn't like him much, many left but the ones that survived were loyal to the end and improved greatly in years to come.  Oh ya, Texas A&M went 1-9 in Bear's first year. 

Calling Lonergan a "bust" just 12 games into his stay at GW is just a stupid, uninformed comment and completely distroys any credibility DEA might have ever had on this board.  He can officially be ignored from this day forward.

And Lonergan never said any of his players are "shitty" and ML never said Mikic is "playing like garbage'.  There are not any such slamming of players in his post game comments.   He's specific in what they are doing wrong: not rebounding, passing well enough, concentrating on D, making good decions on offense.  That's dramaticly different than publicly demeaning his players.  He did say that he needs recruit new players and that he when he got here he didnt' think the team had enough tallent overall.  But I just haven't heard any personalized slams of indiviual players other than publicly stating what he's surely telling them every day in practice: specific areas they need to get better at in order for GW to start winning.  He also said that they do have a great player in Taylor and that it's on him (Lonergan) to find a way for Taylor to get more shots.

I was close enough to the bench for the last two games to get a good view of the ML - Player interactions.  It was completely different in the JMU and UAB games.  I would say that after the JMU game ML decided to "ease up on the whip."  Frankly if you want to look at body language etc. it was 500% worse during the JMU game.  To me it looks like ML and team had talks after the JMU game and they agreed to do their best to get through the year.  GW came out to start the UAB game resigned to sucking and hating it along the way.  The 5 stages of grief?

Anger

Denial

Bargaining

Depression

Acceptance

Last night looked like we are in the depression stage whereas JMU looked like the anger stage.

Thinker, you could be right.  Although, he seemed to have a few moments of Anger last night, such as when Smith made one of his cameos, forced a shot, and as he came back to the bench, ML waved his arms in the air.  Maybe that was Denial, though, like I can't believe you took that shot after all I taught you.  Or maybe it was Bargaining, like if you're going to chuck it up like this (waves arms), I'm going to sit your ass down.  Or maybe he even moved onto acceptance, like, Lo, I have seen a vision of a player shooting thusly. 

Maybe Dr. Kubler-Ross is available as a Fan Consultant. They could give her cards with each stage on it, and she can hold up the right one to help us understand what's going on.  Maybe she could replace the Tonic Trivia Question.  

I was awfully impressed that the young lady knew the date we beat UAB in the NCAA.  I guess I'm still in Denial that George feeds the answer to each contestant.  

I can tell you, though, I was mostly Depressed being there last night once the game started.   

 Things you can bet on:

• The cliche "players-only meeting" run by Ware/Taylor, etc. where everyone gets yelled at a bit, then gets fired up.
• The different combinations of starting line-ups every night for a few games in futile attempt to shake something good up.
• A few technical fouls in the first half of games by ML in attempt to fire team up.
• Moving TT to SG for longer stretches and/or just telling him not to pass
• Increasingly desperate comments by ML as he's never gone through a losing streak like this.

More pizza to keep the fans appeased!

Am I having blackouts, or are they not choosing winners in the Dance Contest any more?  And has Subway or Domino's or whoever dropped their sponsorship of the coupon if GW makes 7 threes, or do they just realize it's so unlikely to happen that they're not going to bother announcing it?

Well if the players are resigned to sucking and hating every minute of it, I would remind them that their implied contract calls for representing this university by putting forth their best effort all of the time in exchange for a scholarship.  There are likely a few who aren't giving it their all right now (I believe most of our players are fine in this regard) and I hope to God that they get their shit together pronto or transfer the hell out of here.  I know I can tolerate a 1-27 team putting forth effort a whole lot more than a team who has some players tanking.

As for what ML has publicly said, the answer of course lies in the middle.  He has not personally attacked anyone.  At the same time, he has, IMO, attacked the group as a whole.  Maybe your take on a new coach publicly stating that his team has less talent than he would have anticipated is a breath of fresh air but from a player's perspective, what you take from this is that the new coach doesn't believe in this group.  ML can say all he wants that he's not giving up on this group but unfortunately, the damage is done.  He NEVER should have made this remark.  Subsequently, the players collectively start to feel that the coach does not have their backs and trust issues begin to emerge. 

So many of you are saying ML will be great for GW in the long run.  I'd love nothing more than for this to be the case.  In the short run, however, he did not handle this transition very well.  In any case, I feel I can safely say that if Mike Lonergan goes on to have success at GW along the lines of what Bear Bryant experienced at Alabama, I'll be the first person to post "Bobo, you couldn't have been more right about everything."

I think Lonergan's comments on the lack of overal talent was referening to the lack of depth and lack of talent other than the top 5-6.  He seems to love Taylor and has spoken well of Ware and others.  I would like to see how his relationship with Mikic and (more importantly) Kromah work out.  He's been tougher on them than anyone else. Mikic seems to be trying to develop his game and I can see Kromah working harder on both sides of the ball.  You can also see Lonergan talking to Kromah in and out of the breaks more than any other player: coaching, conjoling, instructing and encouraging. If Lonergan can get Kromah to stick with him, fully buy in and adjust his game I'd be much more encouraged for next season. 

Even with the new players comming  in next year. (lets say there is at least 5 new players since ML said he's been recruiting every single night after the VCU loss - meaning there's mor to come) ML is ging to need significant contributions from Kromah and maybe lesser contributions from Kopriva, Pellom and maybe Smith if he can play his way into form.  Starting over completely without Kromah (and maybe Smith) would truly be a full year wasted for GW and Lonergan.

Obviously bobo does not have problem with completely wasting away this season. 

 some perspective?

http://gwhoops.com/default.aspx?mid=10310

This is horseshit - it was unfair to Hobbs when it was done and it is now unfair to ML. We are 12 games into the season. I was not in favor of letting Hobbs go but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump at the first sight of a little blood. Again, ML has a 5-year contract. ML has one player he recruited.

But the best is that critics are now trying to have it both ways with statements like "I'll be as happy as anyone if we win with ML." Of course, then they leave themselves plenty of room to say I told you so if it doesn't work out.

So I'm starting another thread entitled "Lonergan - in or out." Hopefully, Herve will preserve the thread for later analysis so we can all see where everyone stands. But at least be a man (or woman) about it and stop trying to have it both ways. 

Seneca, you're really being quite the d-bag about this.  I voted In for Lonergan and really hope that he and his staff are the long-term answers for this program.    That does not mean for a second that I will not criticize when it's warranted.  Are you truly so appalled that you can't believe that people would offer criticism on a message board during a seven game losing streak?  Commenting on why the team is struggling so badly and yet wanting the team and coach to be successful are not contradictory notions.  That might be "trying to have things both ways" in your world, but not in anybody else's.

Actually MV if it was another poster you might be right. But you have consistently tried to have it both ways here before. If this doesn't work out I can hear it now: "I told you guys .... just 12 games in."

"quite the d-bag..."

Come on, MV. Either say it, or don't -- swear or not -- just don't p-ssy- out.

Seriously, you don't sound angry enough to resort to name calling, so why not try to be more controlled and reasoned?

Yeah, I've been a douche myself, i'm sure, and I really am not intending to say this "at your expense" as you are wont to say. But this thread is about twice as long as it ought to be, and what it does not need is more of you and bobo and you and Seneca going at it, over and again.

We all have the same thing in common. A team that will have to strive to achieve mediocrity. Players who seem like nice young men, but who are not especially skilled as basketball players, at least not at the level they hope to play. We each support them for bizarre and obscure and emotional reasons of our own. We all wish them success, but none of us can help them achieve it.

How about doing something new? How about we take Herve's Commandment Number One to heart? Argue. Not like a bunch of rat-assed terriers, snarling and nipping and growling at each other. Like adult men who have attended college and have families and lives and senses of humor.

Other people read this stuff, including impressionable young people, coaches, spouses, et al. I know, because when I was a shirtmaker and a shirtseller my address was public and I got letters from some of them. They were sickened by what some of us said here about coaches, players, administrators and GWU. Stuff that none of us would say to their faces -- they made that very clear.My guess is that Herve has heard some of this himself, maybe a lot of it.

Anyway, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. Let's think about making it a real New Year, and as happy a one as we can make it.

Georgia Tech 66 - Fordham 72

James Madison 60 - Rhode Island 79

Would like to hear more about Warren transfer.

Maybe he wasn't ML's style, but don't know how it would have been in his interest  to force out any big man on this team at the half-season mark, unless you had someone else coming in mid-year.

Thanks Ziik...Seems pretty like reasonable summation (sp?) and prefered direction

 Haha Bobo is a clown. He compares our new coach to the greatest college football and basketball coaches of all time and calls me ridiculous. 

- There is some crazy idea on this board that we aren't allowed to bitch about the coaches because they're new. You bitch about the players, why not the people getting paid? I don't dislike Lonergan personally, I've never met the man, if he does a good job than I will support him as coach. Right now he is not doing a good job. We are bad, we look uncoached and he throws the players under the bus rather than taking the blame himself, something I don't agree with. Get over it. 

Ziik, well put and point well taken.  I'm not done debating but I'll try to do away with the name calling.

Seneca, believe it or not, I would receive significantly more joy watching this team win consistently than I would debating you or others.  I am not interested in saying 'I told you so" to anyone.  I am not secretly hoping that Mike Lonergan fails.  And I really don't know what you mean by suggesting that I like to have things both ways.

I am doing nothing more than, to use FQ's words, call them like I see them.  I am not suggesting that Lonergan should lose his job now, or at the end of this year, or at the end of next year.  This has been repeated consistently.  I love what ML did in the offseason to promote this program.  The recuiting seems very sound.  Despite what you may think, I am happy and willing to toss accolades around when these are warranted.  And, I have done so.  Right now, this team has lost 7 consecutive games in a row.  There is going to be some criticism.  There are going to be some questions raised.  There are going to be theories, philosophies and suggestions on where the problems lie and how to best solve them.  I am not going to blindly pretend that these problems don't exist and post nothing more than "Go Colonials" along the lines of what Blue Seats would have preferred we all do in a comparable situation.

You are allowed to love this team and at the same time, point out what needs to improve or change. So that all said, your response appears to be that all of this is fine for any other poster but not for me.  To which all I can say is......too bad.

I'm not sure Hobbs ever said the team lacked talent, just that a team with some of the best talent in GW history were "overachievers".   Also there was the "young" concept he used for several years.  Same point as Lonergan, just a little more subtle distancing -- if things don't go right, I'm just the coach, what was I supposed to do?  I kinda wonder how it goes down with the coaching fraternity when one of them basically blames his predecessor for not recruiting that well. 

I do think Lonergan comes off too much as a downer, though.  You can't lie to media and fans who are watching the same games as you are, but you can be more positive about it, or at least not dwell on the obvious negatives.  Unlike, say, Alabama, we don't have an unshakeable fan base, or players that came here to go through whatever the lashings will be, in order to play for the nationally-prominent program.  Or maybe he's using the same approach with the fans -- if you can't hang in during the bad times, I'll find people that can.  Only he might succeed with finding players who will run his system right, but I'm not sure the reserves of tough-it-out fans are out there.