By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/23/2015 3:40:34 PM

I'll start with some definitions -

Coveted Recruit = Multiple schools at GW's level or above wanted the player

Good Recruit/Player = Was able to contribute as an important role player or spot starter at an average A-10 player level

Great Recruit/Player = Was able to play a significant role as a starter and be in consideration for some all A-10 postseason awards

Here I'm only looking at HS recruits - Obviously Armwood and Creek were local guys who were highly coveted and Armwood was a great player and Creek was good +

So here are our local HS recruits under ML:

2012 - Kevlar, JoeMac, Savage

2013 - Nick Griffin

2014 - Darian Bryant

2015 - Collin Goss.

2016 - ???

So of the 6 local guys we've signed so far I'm only willing to fully accept that Kevlar was coveted AND great. Good and decent people can honestly disagree about how coveted Savage or JoeMac were. Good and decent people can disagree as to whether those two were good or great. Harder to say they were coveted AND great. Still they were/are both very good players and good gets for GW. But since then?

Obviously neither Griffin or Bryant were coveted or good. Goss didn't appear to be coveted and no one is suggesting that he's going to be good by the definition above - though obviously he could turn into a good player for GW.

What local players are still in play for 2016? By my eye (please correct me if I've left someone out) there seem to be 3 guys -

Ako Adams - Coveted but there has been no GW mention about him for a little while and more mention of Christian Vital so I wonder if we're still in the mix for Adams. Obviously we could be.

Craig Lecesne - Under the radar guy from Sweden. VC says offers from UNC -Asheville, Charlotte, Towson, and Tulsa. Hasn't been much GW mention for him at all. 

Micheal Tertsea - Obviously we're in the mix for him. VC lists only Dayton and LaSalle as offerers at GW's or above level. 

Obviously we could get any of these guys and obviously there could be other local guys that we could get this year. But if neither of those things happen then we wouldn't have successfully recruited a coveted local player for 4 straight years and in 2016 our only local player would be Goss - if he is still with the team then. People like Bo have already speculated that only one of Cimino or Goss might stay at GW after this year.

Also consider that 5 of the 6 guys were Takeover players and that Pete Strickland was really the Takeover guy on the staff - People in the know on this board (not me) have suggested several times that Strickland was that guy that recruited Savage, Griffin, and Bryant. Kevlar was a Montrose Christian kid and Kevin Sutton is a former Montrose coach. Consider that Carm is from upstate NY and MOJO is from Canada. Hajj is from Charlottesville but I don't know that he's that connected locally.

So at this point I would ask - Is it really accurate to say that ML has been effective or looks to be effective going forward at recruiting local players?

By: Bigfan (2,829 posts) - 8/23/2015 5:18:58 PM

Would be interesting to find out which assistant coach does what.?And how they are doing as recruiters to replace Sutton, for example.

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/23/2015 5:59:27 PM

VCU fans are adamant that Shaka really wanted Savage and he averaged 12 & 5 for a NCAA/NIT team so I would have no problem counting him as a great and coveted player.  Your point is still solid.  After all that local recruiting hoopla, it seems like we haven't make much more headway with local HS players than KH did.  

Also in danger of breaking the +20(?) years with two or more foreign players on the roster streak.

By: ziik (2,950 posts) - 8/23/2015 6:15:51 PM

So long as the entire DMV populace knows GW is a welcoming place to come home to for transfers, and ML can make a dent in freshmen recruits every coupld years, we will be fine. We (the city) are a place students want to come to, and as GW keeps improving, the bball team will continue to benefit. 

As an aside, I note some guys still grumbling about the kid who got away to KState. I realize he is damned quick, but so far (except one game against KU, I think), he has been disappointing. Does anybody really think he'd have set the world afire at the Smith Center?

By: Free Quebec (6,340 posts) - 8/23/2015 6:38:40 PM

I actually agree with Thinker's point, that we aren't doing as well as that Joe/Savage/KevLar class suggested locally.  I don't know if that's becuase the guys we've targeted have blown up and gone BCS, because having 3 local freshman starters sent a warning to other kids who know them not to come becuase PT would be an issue, or becuase this area is so heavily tied to an AAU scene that will never be our best friend. Or something else.

 

However, as with the other recruiting threads, we have to remember that transfers make up something like a third of our recruits these days. Thus, Armwood and Creek should be on this list.

 

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/23/2015 6:43:09 PM

BM,

I'm agnostic on who offered Savage. I think GWStag has repeatedly said he didn't have an offer from VCU. Either way he was a good player to sign.

I thought I had seen somewhere that Tertsea was from Nigeria but I may have imagined that. Lecesne of course is Swedish so we could keep our streaks alive by signing him.

Since the Jarvis era (maybe Penders) it's been tough for GW to get kids from the Baltimore AAU scene (Tertsea). It seems like he might be a late fast riser on the recruiting scene. Let's hope for good news.

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/23/2015 7:02:39 PM

FQ,

I mentioned Armwood and Creek in the OP. I didn't use them for this argument because tranfers are really a different beast. Understand that Armwood also went to Montrose and was recruited at NC State by Strickland - so that we got him was almost certainly due in large part to Sutton and Strickland. I think there is an excellent chance that Strickland would have recruited Creek at NC State as well but don't know for sure. He was also a Takeover guy I believe.

What we have seen at GW and elsewhere with recent transfers -- to have much of a chance you had to have recruited the player out of HS or otherwise have someone with some relationship with the player from before. Cavanaugh obviously was heavily recruited for years by ML. And apparently ML recruited Sina out of HS and may have recruited his HS teammate and good friend Mitola as well. I think that may be one reason why GW is recruiting so many "tweener" recruits who may be a little better than A-10 but not quite good enough for high major -- to get those guys the second time around when they transfer.

So if we count transfers or not for this question - We haven't gotten any local transfers either after Sutton and Strickland left GW.

By: Thomas (1,146 posts) - 8/23/2015 8:31:24 PM

Savage and McDonald are interesting cases because they may not have been coveted by BCS schools, but both of them were highly regarded here locally. McDonald was 1st Team All-Met as a Junior and Senior, Savage was first team All-Met as a Senior, both of them were standout players in an elite league and they were selected to play in the main event game of the Capital Classic. It doesn't get much better than that for local players. From what I recall, there was more anticipation of what Savage and McDonald could do at GW, than there was for Larsen because Larsen barely touched the ball at Montrose.

Ako Adams could have a similar senior year to Savage, McDonald, and that player who signed with Kansas State in 2013. Didn't he say that he wanted to sign during the early period in November??

Ziik, I think that guy would've been a double-digit scorer on last year's team if he came to GW, and a top reserve as a freshman in 2013-2014. He was OK at Kansas State, but he showed he can be a pretty good scorer in spurts.

I agree with FQ about GW targeting local guys who end up signing with BCS schools that enter into the picture after GW shows interest and/or makes an offer. Off the top of my head, I think of 2014 local guys like Charles Thomas IV, Josh Reeves and Justin Robinson who turned down GW for BCS schools. There's not much ML can do when a BCS school comes calling for a player that they've offered.

By: Cutis (243 posts) - 8/23/2015 8:48:24 PM

At nearly each home game I bring a guest. This year I brought one of the most well known retired high school coaches from the DMV. He came to two games. He commented on ML's overly aggressive micro management of each offensive play. His comments were not favorable. He also stated that some of his coaching friends find ML's way of doing things a bit odd. I have taken the liberty to be very kind. On May 6 th 2011, ML was hired. He stated that this was a " A job that providers all the comforts of home" Little did I know that so many recruited players would be unhappy and transfer out. When a rising senior transfers out,having to sit out one additional year, regardless of the spin there are big problems with the program. I foreone do not see much successful recruiting in Montgomery County for quite awhile. Sadly so.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/23/2015 9:17:24 PM

Cutis - obviously you don't like ML and that's fine. But you lose ALL credibility when you say things like:  "I foreone do not see much successful recruiting in Montgomery County for quite awhile. Sadly so." Anybody who knows ANYTHING about high school basketball knows that on average there might be 3-4 Division I players in a given year in the whole county including privates and maybe 1-2 that are even good enough to play at GW.

And yes it also as credible to state the program is in "big trouble" currently following NCAA and NIT appearances. About 250 programs nationwide wish they were in such trouble.

I swear you can't make this stuff up.

 

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/24/2015 12:00:34 AM

Excellent question, (how is our DMV recruiting going?)

1) Not great recently obviously.

2) Agree that transfers are a "different beast" (Not sure why that's in dispute, they just are different)

3) Agree that JoeMac and Kethan as Thomas were exceptionally highly decorated well regarded local players, back to back 1st team All Met it doesn't get much better than that.  As BM notes its pretty well documented that VCU was hard after Kethan. JoeMac if memory serves signed very early and didn't yet have high major suitors, their miss.  Its not like in May of his Senior year he didn't have other offers. Joe   BigKev for sure was coveted, a real coup.

4) Do we have a current assistant on the staff who has local inroads? Connections? If not that seems like a real oversight and we should get one.

5) 100% agree w/Thomas, Nigel would have been a good player and a real asset for GW.

6) We had an official visit and made an offer just today to a Team Takeoever guy. 50% of our incoming class is TT. We have other offers out to TT guys.  The death of that relationship to me seems greatly exaggerated.

7) It will be really interesting to see how the 2016 class recruiting goes. We haven't had good local recruits the past few years, but we haven't had many good recruits period.  Eager to see both of those things change and I predict that it will.  As BM suggests I'd be equally intrigued to see the return of more international players too, I just think that's our two twin advantages, the location and school are very appealing to International players, we have a track record of success with them, and we're sitting in the heart of one hoops real hot beds, The DMV. Need to fire on both fronts

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/24/2015 10:08:00 AM

Cutis,

This is a downside of having so many local kids at the home games.  The idea is to have them see a packed Smith Center go wild in a nice home win, but they frequently end up with an up close and personal view of ML's sideline antics whenever the game gets tense (eg. yanking Griffin after a couple of minutes when he missed a three, having the assistants talk him of the ledge, and sending him back in again shaking his head).

I think I've mentioned it before, but IMO, the reason we do so well in the holiday tournaments is because ML is coaching relaxed and letting the kids play.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/24/2015 10:43:21 AM

1. I'm very interested in seeing whether we land any of the Albany City kids.  This is Coach Carm's stomping ground where he has the relationships.  For next year's class, it would be far more disappointing in my mind to not land any Albany players than it would to not land any local players.

2. JoeMac was not an early signee.  He whittled his list to GW and Princeton and ultimately verbaled in February.  He of course couldn't sign until the actual signing period since the early signing period had passed.

3. I do not follow the recruiting wars like many here but it seems to me that the local players we've been targeting since the Core 4 have either been above our reach (Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins deciding on Villanova come to mind; Nigel goes without saying) or have been not particularly sought after (Bryant, Griffin).  Goss was an early signee making it difficult to project the level of offers he ultimately would have received had he prolonged his recruitment.  It would seem to me that recruiting is a balancing act where you must be going after guys who are likely beyond your reach, guys who are great fits, and guys who you'll happily take if you need them.  I'm not sure how many local guys who would have been great fits we've missed out on since the Core 4.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/24/2015 10:45:53 AM

BM, with all due respect, ML coaches exactly the same way. He doesn't change his style based on venue. Perhaps what you are confusing is results rather than process. Like any coach he has longer leashes for certain players and shorter leashes for others. Griffin's well documented liabilities on defense, rebounding and handling the ball contributed to his quick hook because ML is always going to look at things from the defensive end first. You simply couldn't have him out there if he wasn't hitting shots and last year he wasn't most of the time (shot a team worst .326 from the floor). Unfortunately, when you are a one trick pony you better do that trick well. Hopefully, he will have better success at St. Peter's.

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/24/2015 1:31:37 PM

I used that Griffin example because it was particularly visible and everybody on the bench came to his defense when ML threw has hands up theatrically and yanked him for missing a shot.  There have been many, many other examples of his poor interpersonal skills when he is on the sideline.  I think of Gary Williams as a sideline corollary, but he took it out on the assistant coaches rather than the players and he also seemed to be a generally more relaxed guy off the court.

Love almost everything else about ML and (you can look it up) I was a big proponent when he was being considered and still think he is one of the best coaches we've had at GW.  But no one can convince me that this isn't a weakness (biggest weakness?) that hurts recruiting and game results.  I would even venture to guess that he'd say the same if you asked him.  I'm guessing its a flaw he actively tries to fix as sometimes he clearly tries to calm himself down between the time he yanks a player and the time when the player sits on the bench, but it somehow looks like what it is... a work in progress.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/24/2015 2:20:50 PM

BM, regarding the sideline antics, do you think the primary problem is the quick hook with certain players, the way ML communicates with certain players, or both?

 

 

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/24/2015 2:25:33 PM

I think he called it "getting crazy" on the bench once.  I'll go with that.  It's no way to communicate with people, even in a sports context.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/24/2015 2:47:46 PM

Agree with BM, its certainly not a recruiting selling point.  Fortunately guys pick schools for many reasons, not just the Coach's sideline decorum or his highly controlled offensive style of play.  Furthermore, a lot of Coaches (many great ones) have silly sideline antics and/or highly controlled styles of play.

MV, my memory was faulty there, thanks for correcting.  It did however jog a few things, Joe was  a Parade All American and as Herve noted, the highest GW recruit Parade All American recruit ever.  (Regis, a transfer was higher)  Joe also had interest from schools like UVA and Notre Dame, not offers but interest. In the end they passed, their loss and Joe instantly joined the list of GW Point Guards who generaled a great wave.  So tremendous HS player, highly decorated, highly regarded by the recruiting evaluators, passed on by high BCS schools and instantly a succcess starter at GW.  When we're signing the best PG in the DMV as both a JR and SR in HS, local recruiting is going well.  When we're signing Collin Goss and Darian Bryant, you have to wonder what's happening.

Is the severe drop in recent recruiting success (the #'s don't concern me as much as the drastic fall in talent) just a random occurrence? Is it tied to the departure of Sutton & Strickland? A product of the early Freshman starting Core 4 and very little PT to offer in ensuing years? Combination of many factors? About to change with PT to offer and the large 2016 recruiting class?

 

 

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/24/2015 3:12:35 PM

Now we have three elements in play here so here are my opinions on each:

1) Quick Hook.  If ML demonstrates a quick hook to a great extent, I haven't really noticed it  He certainly has demonstrated this on occasion which might be more than some coaches who would never take a player out due to a bad play or shot.  I think that ML's leash isn't all that short though trusted starters tend to have longer ones than bench players (which runs a definite risk of stifling their development).

2) How He Treats His Players.  Sarcastically at times, harshly at times, and yet he's also very encouraging at times.  He has been guilty of attributing some blame to players in the press (he should work on that IMO) but by and large, I don't see him as a Bob Knight, Frank Martin , or even Gerry Gimelstob type who really shows up players.  Any player who signs up to play for him does so with the understanding that some unpleasurable stuff can definitely go down during the heat of battle.  I'd also have to make this same statement about the vast majority of D1 coaches.  The stakes are high, the tempers can flare, and boys turning into young men have to learn that this comes with the territory. Practically no matter where they choose to play.

3) Highly Controlled Style of Play:  Finally, here's the one area where I could foresee a high school player coming to a GW game, observing ML, and being turned off.  There is a method to ML's madness and that can be found in his career won-loss record.  However, lots of coaches win without having to have to seemingly manage every possession.  I can see some players observing this and thinking that this may not be for them.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/24/2015 3:27:46 PM

BM, look if you are trying to get me to agree that ML would not be considered "a player's coach" we have no disagreement. There is no question he is tough and demanding. But so are a lot of coaches who have won big - Gary Williams, Roy Williams, Coach K, Bobby Knight just to name a few. ML isn't in that category in terms of success but his demeanor and treatment of players certainly isn't outside that norm.I've never subscribed to the fact that you can't be tough and demanding - perhaps I'm too old school for the new soft as charmin millenials. I find it funny that some believe college players deserve more than a scholarship because they are so instrumental to college sports business but then want these kids to be treated with special kid gloves because after all, they are just students (I know you didn't say it but others have). The thing about ML you should know is he is equal opportunity critic frequently criticizing his own effort as well as players. He is an open book and gives the unvarnished truth. I have absolutely no qualms about his treatment of players from what I have witnessed so far. These kids want to play big boy basketball then they need to put their big boy pants on at game time and in practices. The ones that can deal with it stay, the ones that can't leave. Overall, ML has been pretty successful as a coach so I think this is more of an internet problem than a real one. My advice to all is to stop watching the sidelines so intently because almost everything you see there can be taken out of context since you do not know what was said/done before, during or after.

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/24/2015 3:34:51 PM

Not trying to get you to say anything.  Stating my observations and opinions on a basketball fan forum.  My comments are about his sideline demeanor and interaction with the players, not about whether he's a player's coach or not.  None of the coaches you mentioned (even Sweaty Gary), seem to lose confidence in the players ability to dribble, stand still or pass as much as ML does.  The players spend way too much time looking at the bench for instruction and/or approval.

Anyone can feel free to look away from the sideline just as anyone can feel free to not read this thread.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/24/2015 3:45:58 PM

BM, really? Not one of those coaches? I suggest you go back and review some old footage of Gary and Bobby. I know for a fact that Gary doled out a lot of tough love. Where do you think ML learned some of his style?

As for players waiting/looking for instruction/approval, were they looking for instruction when we beat Wichita State, Pittsburgh, Maryland, VCU (last 2 years) or just when we lost to Davidson, VCU and URI (this year)? I don't see any difference from one game to another other than ML reacting to what is going on during the game.

By: Bigfan (2,829 posts) - 8/24/2015 4:35:32 PM

BM is right, as usual.

Even Bo Knows acknowledges some of that. Now that doesn't mean ML doesn't have great character, which I saluted in another thread. He says what he thinks and is intensely competitive, like most coaches, but wears it on his sleeve even more so. He does have to work on the bench issue, particularly if it affects recruits.

    You really saw it with Kethan's facial expressions as he is being lectured. Some take it well, like Yuta, who always wonder whether he fully understands it, and surprisingly Paul because think he bears the brunt of it, but believe he and his family know he didn't come here to be coddled.

Bobby Knight is a total asswipe bully, which to me means not really a man, so no one should model themselves after him. Gary could be a dick on a good day, but also has principles. BM's has a good eye and Gary did take it out on his assistant coaches.In fact at one BB&T remember his telling one assistant, an older gentleman who had been a head coach at a lower level than ACC to "shut the fuck up." We talk about it to this day.

Do wonder about the assistants. They seem in the little I look at the bench, though occasionally sit right near it, to be somewhat out of it, almost afraid to point things out to ML. Certainly they don't remind him when to put in the bench, even in lopsided games, which thought was a function. To serve as a foil and a reminder.

They are all nice guys, for sure. Just don't know what they do on the bench. (Disclaimer in advance of argument that might be coming: though watched GW basketball for a long, long time, never been a Division I head or assistant coach. Nor have been pretty much all of us)

Players do have to look to the coach too much bringing the ball up court, which always thought was a great opportunity for a steal by the other team when the dribbler's head is turned away from the court.

ML does tend to gesticulate angrily, let's say just a bit or more when pulling players and certainly employs sarcasm that may not be the most inspiring. Accept this because he is good coach who sincerely cares about his players and great family man who makes us proud and recruits players who make us proud. But sure he knows he needs to work on this a bit--and ML probably has acknowledged it because he is straightforward.

On the other hand, Hobbs was a raving lunatic who stomped his feet in the early years so much they probably had to replace the floorboards on the sideline. And though we loved Jarvis, no one was thrilled when he just hung his head in his hands and watched as things occasionally turned south, including against Iowa.

Gotta be a happy medium somewhere. Perhaps some very successful older coaches have a style to emulate.

 

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/24/2015 4:45:32 PM

BM specifically said ML is unique in the level of guys looking to the sidelines for instruction/approval and he's right about that.  He didn't say that other Coaches didn't yell more.  Some did.  Derails things to misstate what someone writes (but of course that was the intended purpose.) 

This thread is about our recent local recruiting efforts.  Of the ML centric 3 issues MV highlights, I agree with MV, #3 is most likely to dissuade a few recruits, that's the cost of running a highly controlled style of play, turns off some dudes.  Plenty of benenfit too, which is why so many college teams have turned to it, offensve efficiency is what wins games, last year's two most efficient Wisconsin and UVA were highly controlled, highly efficient, highly winning.  It might cost them some recruits too who like to get up and down the court, open style of play.   Wisconsin and UVA have outplayed Big 10 and ACC teams that have had splashier recuiting talent with their exceptional efficiency and execution and I believe that's partially the plan at GW too.

With regard to the assistants, Carm's role is obvious, what's Mojo's? It would be nice to see him tap into the Canadian market which is suddenly producing a ton of talent, but what else?  Hajj's role? Is there a guy with a focus on or connections to the local DMV scene?   Anyone aware of who/what led us to Collin Smith in the Jax area?

A big part of ML's appeal as a Hire of course were his own personal connections and roots in the DMV, any insights into those?

By: Tuna Can (1,661 posts) - 8/24/2015 4:56:32 PM

Bo, I think that you would be the first to say that Coach isn't perfect. It is fair to say that there are local coaches who don't like him.... or use other "more colorful" words. AND, Coach Lonergan, while show a measure of success, hasn't hit the point where he is going to be accepted as an excentric coach who produces great results, like a Knight. 

I am thinking that, if we are having this same conversation in a year after another non-stellar season and a mediocre recruiting class for 2016, then attitudes towards the coach will change.

I am pretty supportive compared to from whence we came, but I am far from 100% happy with the meat of this discussion. It isn't about players leaving, as players leave everywhere. It is more about the undertones of ML's approach. I would characterize it as not always positive and healthy--possibly counter-productive. It's likely to produce tentative play. 

I look at the quote in the recent interview by ML where he said that Mo and zeek and Mo woldn't have allowed some of last year's losses, well they didn't always listen to him and then just took over. Maybe the message there is that what Lonergan fights, he really wants or needs.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/24/2015 5:05:54 PM

Worth noting that in KH's most successful season, he enlisted the services of Phil Rowe to serve as an assistant.  Phil was a former head coach at UNH and a very experienced college coach.  Somewhat similarly, in ML's lone NCAA appearance at GW, he hired John Fitzpatrick who spent 25 years as an assistant coach at the D1 level. This isn't meant as a knock on Hajj, MoJo or Coach Carm but sometimes there is no substitute for having an experienced sounding board on the bench. Without this, it becomes more conceivable to imagine ML carrying more internal pressure to constantly make correct decisions.  

By: ziik (2,950 posts) - 8/24/2015 5:10:05 PM

I think you nailed it, MV. Any guy in organizational command needs a capable second, maybe even one with more experience, and less decisionmaking authority. The current assistants can be as smart and aggressive as they come, but ML needs to have someone to count on in a pinch, even if it is just to tell him to shut up.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/24/2015 5:15:38 PM

First of all we are assuming facts into evidence here. Who said that ML's bench style is affecting recruiting? Are we aware of a recruit who has said "You know I would have gone to GW but can't stand ML's bench style"? 

Second, ML is very much what I call a playstation coach. He wants to see how the other team lines up and adjust to take advantage of matchups.He has a playbook that would make your head spin so he can dial up a lot of stuff. Many may not coach the same way but that is his style - a style I am pretty sure he believes given the talent we can attract to GW, gives us the best chance to win. Some who want to run and gun won't like it. But believe it or not ML's style is more similar to Jarvis' as far as managing the game. So this is a question of style not appropriateness.

Third, some of you probably need to watch more college basketball in general. It gives you perspective and a better understanding of where ML fits in on the continuum. I casn assure you he is neither the most demonstrative on the sidelines or the toughest micromanager. Go spend a day with any Bobby Knight disciple (assistant), go spend a day with Coach K at practice (lol), etc. etc. Your eyes will be wide open afterwards. I promise ML is not even close.

Fourth, and I keep harping on this point, looks can be deceiving and unless you have audio of what was said before during and after, you are likely to be deceived by appearances. You have no idea what is said to players and whether some need a kick in the ass or a pat on the back for motivation. Only the guy who is with them all the time understands this and I promiose you if you think one size fits all you will never be successful because coaching a team is like herding cats sometimes.

Fifth, other than Savage, not one player who was recruited by ML and received significant PT has transferred as of now. Transfers are almost always about PT as was Savage's (at the PG).

Sixth, you may not like Bobby Knight and disagree with his tactics (I don't agree with everything he did) but having spoken to guys like Scott May, Quinn Buckner, Steve Alford, Damon Bailey, I can tell you to a man those guys have a respect for him even though he was very tough on them. Why? Because even though he was tough there was no phony bullshit. Players appreciate honesty as much as anything even if it isn't what they want to hear. This relates to ML because he is honest almost to a fault.

So despite the fact he wins, largely keeps his players that play, tells his players the truth, has had no signs of mutiny, and we don't really know what happens on sideline, we are expected to believe that all of this adds up to "big problem"? Sorry that just doesn't measure up by a longshot IMO.

 

By: Nitro (8/24/2015 5:29:58 PM)

Having read through this thread, I have to concur with Bo. At this point, there is simply not enough evidence that ML's style either harms the team or is costing GW recruits.

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/24/2015 6:08:54 PM

I'm sure that Bo is correct about a lot of what he is saying. I watch some college basketball but I don't really focus in on other teams' coaches yelling at players one way or the other. I wouldn't even hazzard a guess as to where ML fits into the spectrum of who yells more or who yells worse. And, like BM and others I just don't care for screaming at the point guard as he is bringing the ball up the floor and having to take his eye off the defender. There must be a better way to call plays from the bench.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/24/2015 6:34:19 PM

No matter what your opinion might be as to whether ML's sideline behavior or personal demeanor has ever cost GW any recruits, the one thing you can bank on is that you'll never, ever hear that as the reason given by a recruit for playing elsewhere.  Let's not say that this is an issue, or a non-issue, because nobody will ever know the real truth behind this.The quote, "I really liked GW's campus, facilities and players, but I just can't see myself playing for that maniac" will never be stated.

 

 

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/24/2015 9:06:59 PM

Well, the thread is about our recent DMV recruiting efforts.  Which is a much broader and more interesting discussion than getting sucked only into the back and forth Bo defends  the smallest micro critiques of ML propaganda tour.  Bo has already declared 2016 "ML's finest recruiting efforts to date" and has said he views this board as a propaganda tool. How much clearer can this be? Should he say "the things I write are not entirely my honest views and fact based but aimed simply to get you to believe only great things about ML&staff?"  Shame is if you can wad through some of the deception efforts, he's right about several other things.

The much broader more nuanced discussion about local recruiting goes far beyond ML's sideline antics or playing style choices.  Its about relationships with local Coaches, its about the persuasion powers and relationship building of ML and his Assistants, its about inroads of lack thereof of the Assistants who are geared to DMV recruiting efforts. 

Raises a few Q's:

1) Were we very close to landing a number of better DMV players and had to settle for Darian Nick and Goss in recent years?

2) What Assistant/s is tasked with the local recruiting now, and how much of the early success was actually due to Sutton/Strickland? Have they been adequately replaced? Is Thinker right they were largely to credit for several of the initial great local recruits and perhaps haven't been?

3) Their replacements are much younger guys who do not have local ties.  The TT relationship seems alive, but we do seem to be getting lesser TT guys in recent years, Nick/Goss.  We are though making offers and getting visits from TT guys, so someone seems to be on that, if its not ML himself. 

4) Does it make any sense to be sitting in the heart of one of the best hoops hotbeds and not making more offers to local recruits? Shouldn't we have a least one Assistant on staff with clear local ties?

5) When a team is very poor (GW 07-11) recruiting is difficult.  One losing season after another makes recruiting more and more difficult, the program image gets tarnished.  Now with back to back Postseason trips and poised for an even better 3rd year, shouldn't our recruiting efforts be have a big edge in that regard?  Will it be? Are we about to get a great recruiting class as I posit we are? Might it not includ a renewed influx of local DMV talent?

By: SHOFAZ+1 (71 posts) - 8/24/2015 9:56:23 PM

+1 MV

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/24/2015 9:58:07 PM

Dude just wondering when this statement became the smallest micro critique of ML: "When a rising senior transfers out,having to sit out one additional year, regardless of the spin there are big problems with the program." And if it is a small micro critique, what do you consider an incorrect worthy critique to push back against? 

Also, for the record, as I understand it, Goss was not really a TT guy. He abruptly left TT to play with Mid Atlantic Select last Summer. Perhaps MOCO Observer can shed some more light?

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/24/2015 11:42:57 PM

The point of the thread is to discuss recent local GW recruiting efforts.  (Not to only engage in the endless Bo pushback game on all things about ML.  I could answer you, note that Goss was a TT guy when we signed him (he later switch AAU teams) or write that I agree that ML losing his most talented player on the cusp of his senior year is surely concerning but "major problems with the program" would seem to overstate matters imo, but that would just cycle us back to your endless pushback on matters both factual or obvious - the last recuiting thread was much better because you sat it out, people actually got to express their views without the subterfuge efforts)

Instead the Q's that ought to be answered have been posed by others in addition to the ones I have thrown out above. 

1) Local recruiting got off to a great start.

2)  Its taken a precipitious dip, and that raises the many interesting questions raised above.

Thinker's Title and subject of the thread "is GW Actually Recruiting Well Locally?" Not what does Bo think about what everyone else thinks about ML, we've already had about 20 of those threads and I'm sure we'll have another 300 in the future.  This thread is about GW's DMV recruiting efforts.

By: SHOFAZ+1 (71 posts) - 8/24/2015 11:51:45 PM

+1 MV

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/25/2015 1:33:16 AM

MV,

I missed commenting on your point about the question of will Carm deliver some City Rocks guys. That is actually really keeping your eye on the ball.

As far as I could tell we were/are recruiting 5 City Rocks guys for 2016.

Howard Washington -- Butler

Quinton Rose -- Temple

Kevin Huerter -- List seems to be down to Michigan, Maryland, Notre Dame and Villanova

Arnaldo Toro -- VC lists only offers from GW, Penn State, Iona, and East Tennessee

Stafford Trueheart -- VC list only offers from GW, Canisius, Richmond, Siena

So even if we get a 2016 City Rocks guy it won't be one of their top players.

I would imagine we'd rather get Dylan Painter (we're on his final list of 7) or Kevin Marfo (he's mentioned us recently as possible visiting in September) over the last City Rocks guys anyway.

Dude,

I guess at this point ML is really our only local guy. I think when he hired Carm he understood his ties and connections were much more in the NE and not the DMV and so we likely wouldn't be as strong locally as we were with Sutton and Strickland.

But I think it's smart to hire the best recruiter with the best connections not necessarily the best local recruiter. In the end I don't know that is matters THAT much where you get good recruits from.

On a different point - I don't think ML or the program is in any trouble at all right now because of Savage leaving or anything else. That can always change pretty quickly. Of course you always still have to play the games etc. but ML has a pretty solid roster for 2015 and has a pretty solid core of guys scheduled to be here in 2016 as well. Are they going to the NCAA's? TBD But absent some calamity one can expect them to be in the top 5-6 teams in the A-10 and have a shot at 20+ wins. Don't see how that can have ML in trouble.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/25/2015 1:58:39 AM

Thinker, good post.  I'd say the reason would be that we have some leg up locally, some guys who want to play in front of family and friends for instance might prefer to stay in the DMV. Joe and Kethan e.g., were both from very close knit, strong families.  There's also a lot more talent in the DMV and much easier and less costly to grow and foster those relationships.  We live in the heart of the densely packed, hoops heavy talent DMV corridor, Upstate NY is not exactly a stone's throw, away or easy to get to, but it does have a good amount of talent and we have a guy with an obvious connection to a strong AAU team up there. 

What's the leg up with Upstate guys? Carm at least had some prior recruiting experience, Mojo I believe was starting entirely from scratch.  What about Hajj? Any insights anyone?  Perhaps the staff is a tad too green collectively?

A lot might well fall on ML, if he's in fact our only local ties guy and only guy focused locally, he might have to work his magic.  Sutton and Strickland may have played a big role in landing some of the early great recruits, but at the end of the day these guys are coming to play for ML, not his assistants and its the HC who seals the deal.  ML also has a long track record including his success getting some great guys to come to Vermont, we need to consistently overachieve in recruiting.  Jarvis was able to do it with a combo of local and international talent, I'd suggest its still GW's best playbook.   Wasn't that a big part of the theory behind hiring a HC with such strong local roots in the first place???

By: Tuna Can (1,661 posts) - 8/25/2015 7:17:52 AM

Bo and Nitro, not to step into the gutter, but to keep this on a "supporters" plain, I have heard from parents of AAU players and coaches and people connected with HS programs from which we would like to recruit that everything isn't Rosy. Ignore this if you wish. I don't disagree that we can succeed even in this event. You are assuming way more than I said or BM said. All that I would suggest is that there is a certain amount of talk and frankly ML hasn't actually delivered the goods, so to speak, to warrant a pass on what people are saying. 

unlike what Nitro says, as having taken enough math and stat courses at the DUB and worked at it as a professional, YES, SIR, anything that takes away from our pool of players from good schools in the neighborhood does in deed hurt our Potential.

As a fan, it does me no good to list names.... ignore if you wish, that's the sports fan, employee's right.

As an aside, sports is a lot like business in that you are dealing with random events and chaos. You can't control so much of what goes on, so you spend your time gearing a business or a team for dealing with "a change in plan."

I am thinking that ML has a team that will more easily adapt to these demands this year. I wouldn't "BLAME" ML for the less than spectacular year last year. I only would have wished that he had a better "spokesperson/advisor" He often speaks in a negative voice even as he compliments someone.... it's like someone else failed.

Bo, from day one, that has been my number one complaint about the coach and I hang that on the AD. Sometimes things seem to be better, but, depending on hwo things are going, the old ML pops up.

Per Nitrile, is it material? maybe not, but it could be way better and if you don't understand business, then you don't know that leaving the wrong impression can be very painful.

AND PALEASE, don't ask me if I have run a business or made millions like the last one on how many games we have seen. (that's a joke) 

The point of that last joke is the ability to accept a small point of contention without having to argue it for no reason. In any venture, you succeed by seeing your weaknesses and fixing them. It isn't just a matter of being humble, it is all about success. 

By: notta hater (2,492 posts) - 8/25/2015 8:50:37 AM

it's foolish to think he does not want our local players. DC is a top spot for hoops. The pool is wide and deep. However, it is over-fished by remote programs and landing top players is tough. I think the jury is still out on ML's ROI in DC. He has put in the time and landed some nice players from HS and transfers from the DC market. I think Maryland's rise from the ashes, UVa's huge bounce-back, and GU's program will make local kids think hard about staying home to play and once that happens GW will be a good option for the right players (those three schools will have limited openings at times or the coach will only be looking for a certain type of player). 

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/25/2015 9:41:30 AM

Food for thought from Tuna.  Since the Core 4, the local recruiting has been questionable:  Creek (who was really such an unusual recruiting circumstance unto itself) and Griffin (with Nigel decommitting), followed by Darian as the one local out of 5 freshmen plus transfers Cavanaugh and Hart (I do not consider Anthony a local despite playing high school ball in the state of Virginia) followed by one local (Goss)  out of 2 freshmen (plus transfers Mitola and Sina.

Entirely speculative but when Tuna reports that something isn't quite right, my mind goes directly to Darian Bryant.  This wasn't just a situation where a player didn't work out and transferred.  This was a player who ML declared as being among the most ready to crack the rotation (along with Yuta) out of the five freshmen.  Coaches have every right to change their minds about players and it's possible that ML misjudged Darian to begin with or that Darian's progress stalled for whatever the reason.  However, this does not look good, I'm sure, to the AAU community within the DMV.  The perception could easily be that ML broke his word, gave up too easily on Darian, didn't help "one of their own", etc.  This is not at all an indictment on how ML used Darian or the decisions he made regarding his playing time.  However, if there is a negative aura in the DMV air regarding ML right now, I'd have to think that Darian's tenure at GW may have a lot to do with this.

By: MOCO Observer (50 posts) - 8/25/2015 9:52:58 AM

First of all, as someone who has more connections to AAU than probably anyone here, if you talk to enough AAU guys you will get a range of opinions on every coach including ML. There are people who like JTIII and others who think his Princeton offense is ridiculous and he is too controlling. There are people who like Turgeon and those who don't. Gary Williams was largely dissed by AAU coaches and he won a national championship. It was no different with Hobbs and Jarvis. It all depends on where you sit and how YOUR players have been recruited/treated (i.e. given playing time). So when I hear anonymous statements about ML posted herecoming from AAU sources it shouldn't faze anyone - it's part of the business - and some of it is spread by other college coaches to gain an advantage. A certain A-10 coach is great at spreading rumors about other coaches in the league and has done so for many years. The rumor mill and unfounded information is the lifeblood of AAU gossip. Just the other day, I was told by a coach at one of the top AAU programs in the area that Markelle Fultz was a done deal to Kentucky. He swore up and down this was the case and that I couldn't tell anyone until it was announced because of course, he was one of the few who knew. Then Markelle says "University of Washington" and I call him. He says well so and so's uncle who is a distant cousin said so. Folks, if you believe anything I write, believe that information that travels the AAU circuit about anything is inherently suspect including how AAU views coaches. I promise if you have a kid and his best option is GW, he is going there. There are two few scholarships to turn down what ostensibly is at least a top 100 program at worst at a great academic school. 

I am certain some of our recent transfer's families and perhaps their AAU coaches have been out there bashing ML. I know of one parent who apparently is making it his business to diss ML. But that one has little credibility in the basketball community so who really cares. People know who he is and also know that his son was in over his head at GW based on talent - which by the way is the fault of both the recruiter and the player. And so it goes. Happens all the time. If AAU programs got pissed off at coaches every time one of their players transferred, there would be nobody left. 

But to address Dude's point and support Bo on this, there is a direct relationship between ML the coach and recruiting. If people post here that there are big problems sometimes that gets bootstrapped into fact when none or few really exist. This in turn could affect our recruiting in ways unknown here where we are in a tight competition. Bo has posited that we lost a recruit once because of something that was posted here. Whether you believe that or not, I believe the statement Bo referred to was made about the recruit himself. Imagine for a moment now that a recruit comes here and reads erroneous things about ML and the program baseed on few people with axes to grind. Does anyone deny that recruits/families come here to read? And because this thread is entitled "Recruiting" it is likely to draw their attention as opposed to a summer movie thread or comments about the women's team.

So I don't think it is wrong for Bo to push back in this thread and at least give the other side. He didn't introduce this into the thread, Cutis did. That was unfortunate. Dude you should be more annoyed at Cutis than Bo for taking this thread off the rails.

All that said, I can tell you that GW is out there working hard locally, nationally and internationally. That's all you can ask. Will the results be there in the end? That's what we still need to find out. But Collin Smith is an excellent start thus far. As for local kids, GW is involved with several both for 2016 and 2017. 

Finally, a word about Goss. Yes it is true that when GW recruited him he was a TT guy. But it is also correct that he left TT last summer. I know TT wasn't thrilled over that - they invested time and money in his development and then he leaves and goes to another program right before open period/EYBL. I don't believe they currently look at him as their guy in the same way they looked at kids who stayed loyal to them. Again, hard to say for sure but I am probably going to be right about that. No big deal now - he doesn't need TT anymore to be successful at GW. And if he were to later transfer (hope not), I don't think TT would feel particularly aggrieved. In fact, just for reference, I spoke to one of their guys about Griffin leaving and his comment was it wasn't the right school for him (basketball-wise) so it was a good decision for both parties. Didn't sound very upset or have anything bad to say about ML.

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/25/2015 10:04:51 AM

I'm sure Goss played at the begining of the EYBL session with TTO last summer.  He was deep bench, couldn't make his shots and I watched him look silly trying to defend opposing bigs in two games.  He left TTO in mid-EYBL.

It was probably a good move for Goss.

By: MOCO Observer (50 posts) - 8/25/2015 10:13:29 AM

BM, I meant Peach Jam.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/25/2015 11:39:58 AM

Bo, some of us judge ML's antics by themselves. no need to watch other coaches or compare to Knight as that's a pretty low (below zero) standard as that is not how you judge behavior.  

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/25/2015 11:45:39 AM

Well Rich, when somebody says there are big problems it is reasonable to ask what is the reference point? What makes them big problems? So you'd have to look to other coaches - what is the norm, what is just good coaching and what is not. Correct? 

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/25/2015 11:54:06 AM

Very helpful post - MOCO.

It's made me remember to post something that I've meant to post for awhile. I talk about AAU stuff and people question it in different ways. It's important to understand that most everything that I believe I know about AAU comes mostly from 2-3 close friends who are actively involved in AAU. Their biases get transfered to me without me exactly being able to discern that they are biases. As MOCO astutely points out - there isn't ONE AAU perspective but many. I go very deep in AAU but not very broad at all. Someone like MOCO and perhaps BO go broad and deep. I may know more details about some particular deal or interaction but I often lack the broader perspective and context to accurately project that concept over lots of other situations in other locations. How do I know when I over project or under project? Like everyone else I don't. 

So understand that when I talk about AAU my thoughts are very informed by a couple of African American guys from PG County and Baltimore - which brings a particular perspective that is different from different people from other communities. 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/25/2015 1:15:39 PM

Thinker +1. And that, I think, is the major point here as it pertains to recruiting and AAU rumors and innuendo.

I agree with MOCO, he has his finger on the pulse out there. And I would add that there is little doubt that as a coach you are going to make enemies. You hold the hopes and dreams of each player in your hands. When things don't go as planned even through no fault of your own, people still point fingers. Some guys get to college and they stop developing. Some lose their passion for the game. Some were projected wrongly. It has never been nor will ever be an exact science. When you have 13 scholarships, you really only need 8 or 9 to be very good. That means in any year you can be wrong in recruiting about 25%-33% of the time and still do very well. No matter what you can never play 13 guys and keep them all happy.

No one sees everything exactly the same. No two coaches see everything the same. Behind close doors there is more arguing and disagreement about roles/strategies/recruiting then you would all like to believe. But in the end, only one guy has the final say. And it is up to the assistants to get his back and be united as a staff. 

And again, context is everything. What some believe is bad behavior in isolation may stem from a series of events out of the public eye. What if I told you (hypothetically) that Griffin was instructed to run through the offense and not take a quick shot. That GW wanted to control tempo. Whether you agree or disagree with the strategy it is what it is and players are supposed to execute - there is only one general. What if this was a mistake repeated time and time again both in games and practice situations? What is ML to do? Give him a high five? Again, as mentioned before, this is not high school basketball but big boy basketball. Jobs, money and campus prestige are always on the line. Plus, I promise knowing Nick Griffin's high school coach that anything ML said or did would probably be less than something he heard before lol. So if Griffin had to be embarrassed a little publicly to finally get the message across that's just college basketball life. Again, this all hypothetical but it yields the larger point.

So again context is everything in evaluating behavior and I doubt any of us have the necessary context to make that negative evaluation. I choose to believe the best in people not the worst in the absence of solid evidence otherwise.

Therefore, I am pretty confident in my assessment that this is currently overblown to a huge degree by a few "critics" of ML here and does not reflect a wider view of ML either among recruits or his current players.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/25/2015 2:20:24 PM

Bo. like i said i have my own reference point. it's a personal thing. do i like ML's antics in the sidelines, no. i don't need the NCAA to tell me what is good behavior and what is not. people love Bobby Knight but was it good behavior when he tossed a chair across the court and other abuses. perhaps i need to watch more bball as you suggested but i don't think so. you apparently watch more games than most of us here and seen many coaches. so tell me what is the norm in your opinion. please include coaches who are obviously sleeping on the bench.

 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/25/2015 3:16:32 PM

Rich, coaches are all over the lot. I've been in Penders, Hobbs, Jarvis' lockerroom following games. I defy someone to tell me that they were that different in their treatment of players. I once heard John Chaney curse at a player using a complete sentence of vulgarities. Gary Williams? Don't get me started. Gerry Gimelstob don't get me started. Greg Marshall, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Coach K, Mark Gottfried, Jim Larranaga, Jimmy Patsos, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, Steve Alford, Bruce Pearl, Bo Ryan, I could go on and on and on. Even Dude's golden boy (Mark Few) and his hated son (Tom Crean) have benn known to go off on players from time to time. So it's not just Bobby Knight and throwing chairs or being physical with a player. If you are coaching these days, these kids all have ADHD and don't listen to a thing you say lol. It gets frustrating.

As for control, ever watch any of your classic tempo teams like Virginia, Wisconsin etc.? Ironically both of those teams have more athleticism than we do but their coaches pull hard on the reigns most of the time.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/25/2015 4:13:19 PM

I think some people may well be overstating the impact of things we can see as fans (sideline antics) and understating vastly things we can't see, Assistants forming relationships on the recruiting trail, the salesmanship of the HC and Staff, etc.

If you are a recruit, you are looking first for a full scholarship, once that becomes apparant, you are looking for a good fit, you are looking for the prestige of the program, you want a location you want to be, you want a Coach and Staff that you believe in and trust in.  I do think that ML sideline stuff is being overstated, the style of play will deter some guys looking to play a wide open offense.  The CRUX though is:

1) Forming relationships, having player and parent trust you, want to play for you (most of that is done based on communication OFF the court, not what they might observe attending a game on the court)

2) SALESMANSHIP, closing the deal, winning wars, having something good to sell like a good program (we have that now, didn't when recruiting 2012) playing time (we have that now, didn't when recruiting 2013/14 guys) Salesmanship is something you either have or you don't and the HC needs to be a master saleman, a closer of deals.  A man who can drink the coffee having closed.

3) An EDGE -

i. DMV location. Edge.  For recruiting basketball players, would you prefer to recruit them to the DC/Baltimore/Nova Corridor or small city Ohio? Semi-rural Carolina? We're not just the center of The DMV but dead in the Heart of DC, edge (GW's location vs Mason's e.g.)

ii. DC is an edge to many international recruits, having other international players and decades of international players is an edge to international recruits - good topic for a different thread

I'm inclined to believe that the drop in DMV recruiting has been primarily:

1) The loss of the top Assistants with deep connections in the DMV area and track records of recruiting success Sutton & Strickland, and in their place, young raw new assistants ramping up to speed without local DMV ties, and with little recruiting experience period.

2) To a lesser but important extent, 4 Freshman starters in 2012 taking away the PT sales point.

We have a departing Senior PG, a departing Senior C, a departing Senior Starting Wing in Pato, Mitola the departing G depth, the 3 year starter 2G KS already departed, PT is back as a salespoint.  Addressing #1 would be of utmost importance.  PT comes and goes, but it comes back, particularly after a dip.  The right assistants though....

Lastly, a thought on ML.  ML has been fantastic to date.  The dip in recruiting lately and locally aside, absolutely fantastic.  For those suggesting something else

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/25/2015 5:06:11 PM

I think it's best to avoid over simplifying what sells kids on GW. I'm sure there are a wide variety of things kids and their families look at. And a wide variety of degrees to which kids think things through before deciding.

In no particular order:

Connection/bond with the coach

Is the coach going to be a good mentor/father figure to the player

Style of play

Playing time/Starting

Which school is going to help develop my game the most

Facilities

Cool shoes and cool uniforms

Size of gym/size of crowds

Connection with other players on the team

Academics/Strength of a particular program

Campus life - dorms, city, social, diversity of student body

Hot chicks

Close to home/far from home/medium away from home

Level of league (A-10, BCS, etc.)

Will I be able to be the alpha/Will I need to be the alpha

Will I be a big fish in a small pond/small fish in big pond

How many tv games

Which team wanted me the most

Where does my advisor/HS coach/AAU coach think I should go

And I'm sure people could easily come up with 50 more things.

Some kids care about a bunch of these things some only a few and all in different percentages. There's not going to be a pitch that appeals equally to all and you really have to find what the kid and his family value and sell to those things.

The best recruiter - like the best salesman listens first and tailors the approach after that. As I recall, when Mikic had his campus visit he was escorted by a crazy tall Serbian American fellow who worked in the admissions office. They made sure to take him to meet professors at and tour the awesome new business school with the mock trading floor etc. Ideally you figure out what is going to appeal to each different recruit and tailor things accordingly.

 

 

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/25/2015 5:59:28 PM

Let's remember how much backcourt playing time there will be next season to "sell" to prospects, assuming that Paul, Jaren, Jordan and Matt all return to the team.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/25/2015 6:01:23 PM

That is a good point MV. But I do think we will bring in at least 1 guard depending on how Jorgensen and Roland progress.

By: Bigfan (2,829 posts) - 8/25/2015 6:57:46 PM

Here's a good way to moderate this discussion: land a significant recruit or several.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/25/2015 10:54:36 PM

MV, you think someone like Matt Hart is scaring away future recruits?

Does just lumping four 6'2 and under guys names together, 3 of them who have yet to play a GW minute (of varying talent levels to be clear)  1 of whom is a D3 transfer, make a compelling argument that we don't have potential PT to sell to high level recruits?  You seriously think this is not a good time to pitch recruits to GW for 2016?  You think there's a Dad in America today saying, sorry Coach Lonergan, my boy would love to play for you but damn with that D3 guy and the HS kid you signed from upstate we just can't sign with you? 

How would you compare are current pitch with say, the twin Freshman starting backcourt, All Met 2012 Guards, with 3 more years of eligibility left?

When you list those guards names over and over like they are proven assets, some people here begin to think whoa what a backcourt! Then they can't figure out why national publications are so bearish on GW's chances.

We're going to start 1 actual G next year and he's graduating. In the 2 will be our talented wing F Pato and he's of course graduating.  Backing them up will be the also graduating Mitola and a Soph, Paul J.  We don't even have a proper two guard on the roster next season.  You think we might be able to recruit one of those guys to at least be on the roster?

 

 

 

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/25/2015 11:38:44 PM

I agree with Dude that recruits just aren't going to be discouraged from coming to GW by the presence of a walkon DIII transfer.

I also think it's not accurate to say that the primary concern of a recruit is always going to be playing time. Most players going to really good teams are almost never going to get a ton of playing time right off the bat. And if a player is trying to go to the hghest level school he can get an offer from -- then often it will be an even tougher road to get a lot of playing time early. Generally the best way to get playing time is to go to a lower level school where you have a better chance to dominate. 

So when guys transfer -- Yes playing time is much more likely to be a consistent concern for players. I imagine that playing time and being a more important part of the team was a factor for Armwood, Creek, Cavanaugh and Sina.

I also suspect that ML like most coaches is generally going to tell recruits that they'll have a chance to comepte for playing time right away and that there performance will determine how much they play. Good players aren't usually that intimidated by that. 

But in the end who knows what Adams or anyone else will factor into their decision.

By: The Other MG (69 posts) - 8/26/2015 12:59:27 AM

I agree with Bigfan.  Results.  Get Ako Adams, and a point on this thread's subject is made.  His skills and the schools we are directly competing with would seem to make him a perfect recruit for GW.  If he believes in himself, he shouldn't be worried about the guards who will be returning in 2016.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/26/2015 1:52:46 AM

Agree with the Other MG and Thinker.

Pathway to realistic PT chance is one important aspect, its hardly the only one. Only a real 3 or 4 year type of barrier is a true deterrent, having a Freshman post player excelling alongside a 2 year huge impact transfer might dissuade a post player 3 years ago from coming to GW for a few years, the way Zeek and BigKev shined in 2012/13.  Similarly the JoeMac Kethan Freshman back-court, might have been somewhat of a deterrent to some recruits 3 years ago, when both starting back-court spots seem pretty locked up. (You can always roll with a 3 guard lineup, easy fix like we did much of the time with KS/JoeMac/Creek. We could have even replaced Creek with a Creek like recruit and slotted him in, it didn't happen.) But that did momentarily at least theoretically maybe act as a slight deterrent.

We want good recruits, really good ones right? The kind of guys who are not going to be turned off from a program because of a D3 transfer or another recruit who hasn't played like JR, or one who played a little and did ok/not amazing like PJ.  If the guys we badly want are worried about D3 Matt Hart, we would have much bigger problems to be concerned about.  Even if JR and PJ play well next year, that alone shouldn't harm 2016 recruiting!

Right now though? CLEAR PATH to realistic fighting chance for real PT.  Great position to land someone like Ako. Great position to land a great class period.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 9:46:08 AM

Bo, I totally agree and that practically goes without saying.  Each year, the goal needs to be to fill positions with newcomers.  Most GW recruits I believe would understand that playing time is earned and likely in scarce amounts as freshmen, short of being an unusually exceptional player. This isn't Kentucky where the best high school seniors expect to play right away.

To be clear, no, I do not expect any future incoming players to be scared off by Matt Hart.  I mentioned him along with the others within the context that he will be a returning guard, and thought it would be a bit obnoxious to list three out of four returning guards by name.  The point again, for those of you who may require extra assistance with comprehension, is that there may very well not be al that much PT available to an incoming 2016 guard given who will be returning to the team.  That doesn't mean you don't recruit guards and sell them on the opportunity of cracking the rotation as a freshman if they earn it.

Dude, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to take you seriously. One minute you write this:

How would you compare are current pitch with say, the twin Freshman starting backcourt, All Met 2012 Guards, with 3 more years of eligibility left?

And then in your very next post, you write this:

You can always roll with a 3 guard lineup, easy fix like we did much of the time with KS/JoeMac/Creek. 

So you write that with Joe and Kethan having three years left, it would seemingly be a herculean effort to land another quality guard the next year and then. less than 3 hours later, you essentially say "oh yeah. We got Creek and played three-guard for much of the time."

I guess contradictions are bound to arise.  This wasn't the first one and I'm sure it won't be the last. 

And one more note, you're probably the last person here who should be telling me what "some people think."  It's not enough that you're able to tell us what Mike Lonergan would likely think about a situation, now you're able to rally support by telling me what some other people think? That's a lousy tactic as my belief is that nobody here thinks quite like you.   

 

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 9:49:38 AM

I'll save The Dude the trouble by amending my first paragraph to also point out that freshmen can play many minutes at GW when they are joining a team where the returning talent level is either subpar or poor fits with the current coaching staff.  The Pops/Mike/Omar class and the Core 4 class are examples of this.  I do not anticipate this scenario happening anytime again soon under ML.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/26/2015 11:32:19 AM

Bo, i appreciate your posts but i think you're losing a little control. Cutis expressed an opinion and you were over him like stink on sh*t.....anybody who knows ANYTHING blah, blah. Virtually anybody who disagrees with you is just wrong in your opinion. Obviously some of us don't like Lonergan's sideline antics. it's an Opinion. Any rationale you offer about ML's behavior will not change my opinion.Thanks for clarifying his behavior to us by comparing to Knight i guess that's you norm.  

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 11:44:02 AM

Rich let's not get hysterical here. "Big Problems" Yup there are big problems here. Like how big? And anybody who thinks Montgomery County is a hotbed of D-1 talent well ... that's just laughable more than anything.

So I guess if every opinion is a valid one, I have one. Neither you nor Cutis know too much about this subject. There, how is that?

By: BM (5,673 posts) - 8/26/2015 12:22:50 PM

ON the positive side, ESPN & Scout just updated their 2016 Top 100s and we have nine and eight names publically associated with us, respectively.  None of the names look likely to GW, but it certainly looks like we're going after top level tallent.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/26/2015 12:46:26 PM

Bo, you missed my point. my post was a general one regarding how you disagree with people. Often when people disagree with you they are told they know nothing. like your response to Cutis. i'll bet i've been watching basketball for a longer (not number of games) than you so i can draw my own conclusion on a coach's behavior. it's not about Bobby Knight as you've brought up his name. so ML behaves better than Knight. i agree with you but wow. As Tuna said ML hasn't delivered the goods yet at least Knight did that. . 

 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 1:12:34 PM

Rich, are you are expecting ML to deliver a national championship at GW to justify his "antics"? Just wow is all I can say.

As for Bobby Knight he was just one of many names brought up so pick another if you don't like him there are probably about 345 more to choose from. Ask any of the 700 transfers about their previous coach, maybe 10% will be all positive. 

Point is if you want to look for "big problems" where little or no problems exist, feel free.

By: The Other MG (69 posts) - 8/26/2015 1:58:03 PM

I'll clarify up front: I'm not in a position or close enough to the situation to intelligently agree or disagree with Bo's larger point, but I've seen most of Mark Few's games (on television) over the last handful of years, and I have never seen him go off on a player publicly.  The worst I have seen is a bark as the player passes Few on the way out of a game (as he pats his back or rear end).

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/26/2015 2:01:41 PM

BM,

I think you either misread the ESPN list or you mistated it above. ESPN does list 9 guys associated with GW but only two are Top 100 guys - Javin DeLaurier and Ty Jerome.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 2:31:35 PM

Bo, there is a larger issue here beyond this specific subject that I can only hope you're willing to accept at least in part.  It's almost laughable to see you post the words  "feel free" in regard to anything on this site, because simply put, you don't allow posters to feel free to express any opinions that cast this program in a less than ideal light.  It's admirable of you to want to defend the administrators, coaches and players at virtually any cost yet at the same time, it's difficult to perceive yours as an objective voice as a result.

Someone questions whether ML's antics/personality/coaching demeanor may turn off potential recruits and you insist that this can't be the case and that people are inventing problems where there are none.  The fact is that we all have no way of truly knowing whether this has actually ever happened or not, or for that matter, how often this may have happened.  As I said earlier, it's highly unlikely that a recruit or his parent would ever publicly admit to this.

So, someone poses a theory that really can't be proven or disproven. People give their opinions as to whether this might be the case or not. Only you seem to feel your role here is to let anyone with negative opinions know that they are wrong.  And opinions are not right or wrong. More importantly, we should all feel entitled here to offer our opinions, no matter what they are, without receiving a constant chorus of moral indignation from you.

Maybe there is something here for you to think about.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 2:33:15 PM

To The Other MG - you want fireworks? There is an old adage in coaching ... be in the lockerroom, at practice or on the sidelines. If you don't see any fireworks directed at players at all 3, expect a coaching change within a year. I promise Few can be tough when he wants.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 2:55:24 PM

So MV if I want to pose a theory on anything no matter how baseless that's ok? What if I came here and said I have a theory that a coach is too friendly with his players and he might be a molester? Is that ok without more? How about coach X is a drunk and cheats on his wife? Just stated it. How about one you are familiar with - that if you didn't know better point shaving was going on? Just bald assertions because as you know 1+1=3 sometimes here.

The internet is a jungle. Anybody can assert anything at any time from the valid to the ridiculous. If they put their name on it in many cases the courts would see a large increase in libel cases. Now I'm not saying folks have necessarily libeled ML here but some of the low barrier to entry bullshit on this board that is accepted as valid opinion is sometimes mind boggling. Yes, everyone is entitled to opinion but not all opinions are equal, especially those with no supporting facts. Maybe I see it more because in a lot of instances I know the other side and have that perspective that others might not.

So if I came here and told you something you know not to be true - would you just accept it as "well it's Bo's opinion"? The assertion was made that there are "big problems" largely unique to GW. But no evidence to support it. The assertion was made that Montgomery County would be a great area for recruiting. Where is the evidence for that (at least this one can be objectively demonstrated)? 

Finally, it's funny that because I am seen as the defender of the program here that I can't be objective. What makes a guy with an axe to grind with ML more objective? Just wondering.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 2:59:57 PM

BTW, MV, I didn't say ML or GW couldn't turn off recruits. What I said was the behavior being critiqued is not any different than what many coaches engage in and that we don't know the entire context. What I said was that if a kid really wants to come to GW, this should not in any way be concerning. 

Kids are unique and what one likes another may not. That's why we have so many college choices in this country. So is it possible a recruit doesn't hit it off with ML, absolutely. Never said otherwise. Just don't think it is a "big problem". Two entirely different things.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:02:31 PM

Bo, i'm confused. please reread my posts, all of which were about his antics, and tell me where i said ANYTHING was a big problem. i'm waiting. 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:17:25 PM

No Rich you were defending Cutis who said it was a big problem.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:25:44 PM

First Bo, thank you for accepting my constructive post in the spirit that it was intended.  And, thank you personally for including that elitist touch of yours ("in a lot of instances, I know the other side and have that perspective that others may not") in your response.  (None of this should come as a surprise.  Even your two poster names connote a certain degree of arrogance.)

Well, the big difference is that the examples you provided were examples of asserting untrue facts rather than theories.  Also, the facts you cite in your examples are unknown calling into question whether they are actually true.  In the example being discussed here, ML does exhibit some sideline antics.  That's really something that can't be disputed.  What can be disputed is whether these antics have ever caused an otherwise interested recruit not to play for him.  Again, since nobody has hard facts in either direction on this subject, people are expressing opinions as to whether this could conceivably be the case. Similarly, nobody is saying that we definitively have  aproblem; what's being said is IF a recruit or recruits is/are turned off by this, then that would negatively impact recruiting and that in turn would be a problem.

So really, the problem here is that you are insisting that people here are asserting untrue statements when in reality, they are speaking theoretically and offering opinions based on whether such theories turned out to be true.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:33:40 PM

Again, MV it would help if you actually read the words that were stated and which caused my response not your 11th hour spin on "well he was really trying to state a theory". Here they are:

"When a rising senior transfers out,having to sit out one additional year, regardless of the spin there are big problems with the program. I foreone do not see much successful recruiting in Montgomery County for quite awhile. Sadly so."

These are factual statements notice he didn't say there "might be" or "may be" big problems. He said there "are big problems". That's a factual statement.

Interestingly, Cutis has not reappeared in almost 3 days to suggest he didn't mean any of this or was only positing a theory.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:35:50 PM

So it's really one poster, Cutis, who appears to be doing the "damage". His problem with the program statement had to do with Kethan transfering out and sitting out a year with only 1 year of eligibility left, a rarety among transfers.  And, he feels that GW should be doing a better job at recruiting in Montgomery County.

My response is that in my opinion: a) Kethan's transfer had more to do with Kethan than it had to do with ML.  Kethan got plenty of minutes and was entrusted with big on-court responsibilities so if he was unhappy because he wasn't a good enough point guard to play more minutes there or because he lost his starting job, neither is indicative of a program with big problems; and b) a review of Montgomery High School players who went on to have productive D1 college careers at the A10 level (or higher) would easily support the notion that Mont. Co. is not a hotbed for major basketball talent.

And, that's all there is to that.

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:39:56 PM

Bo,

You make many nuanced and complex arguments here. That's not criticism since I think I do as well. I appreciate your perspective on things.But I've always understood that message boards tend to have a fairly limited appetite for nuance and complex arguments. AND I'm not sure what one can expect on an unmoderated message board  that only has one rule and that does not require registration.

This is Herve's board and that's how he wants to run it and I respect that and HIM 1000%. It is pretty hard for me to imagine almost any other such board on almost any topic would operate with less libel, racism,mysogyny, abuse etc.than we have here.  

It's hard to comprehend how much more civil and reasonable things are here compared to almost any board - even one with registration and moderators. So I think one has to accept it for what it is - sometimes limitations and often results WAY beyond reasonable expectations.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 3:58:54 PM

Agreed Thinker. But the point in this case was to challenge the unsupported statement  that there are "big problems" with the program. I don't expect that every post is going to be reasonable and appropriate and this board has seen its share of tifts over race, religion, misogyny, etc. over the years here. I don't expect to agree with every post or thought. If I spent my time disagreeing with every post I objected to here it might be a full-time job :-). However, the idea that we have someone (presumably a GW fan) believing there are "big problems" with the program right now is somewhat shocking to me given the current state of affairs and GW's basketball history. I think others agree with that assessment. I think that assessment has at least an equal place in the discussion regardless of the complexity or nuances involved and needs to be stated forcefully. Again, while each of us may come to know individual posters and their likely thoughts on matters, a newbie reading this board has no perspective on whether Cutis' statement is accurate or fair. For all he knows, Cutis is spot on. Just can't let that go unchallenged if you disagree and care about the current program.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 4:07:58 PM

Yes, MV it was initially one poster. And it would have stopped with my initial post except others then doubled down on the comments in part. 

I find the whole thing ironic in a way. Here we have people complaining about the lack of success in recruiting recently or the transfers out but at the same time they expect ML to go out and recruit well after labelling his program on this board as having "big problems" ostensibly with player-coach interactions. Do they think that if a recruit's family or a recruit reads this, it will help the cause? If it turns out that I am wrong and there really are big problems with the program, aren't those going to come out in the wash regardless? Do you think Cutis will get a medal for anonymously being the first here to identify said problems? Some thoughts are better left unsaid because there is absolutely no upside and only downside to posting them. This was one of them IMO.

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/26/2015 4:25:28 PM

Bo,

Your last point about posters who want GW to succeed but then post things that might make that more difficult points to the ultimate irony of message boards to begin with. 

People on the internet very often feel super empowered to say anything they want and hope that their words are treated with great deference and yield great influence. But on the other hand if you say that something they said was unproductive or hurtful or harmful then they would say - nobody pays attention to message boards anyway.It's the great contradiction of the internet age.

I always try to think through what I say with those considerations in mind. Sometimes I strike the right balance and certainly sometimes I don't. Others would certainly disagree with me on whether in a particular case I did so or not. But I have certainly considered it. But it's hard to convince someone that doesn't think what's on message boards matters to think those things through.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/26/2015 4:29:37 PM

You are arguing past the point, not to it Bo.  I agree here with you about ML and disagreed with some of the ML critiques, particularly the strongest of the bunch.  Yet, "You are hysterical Rich" "you know nothing Cutis" (MV is correct, you know nothing is a constant refrain from you) is not a good way to address comments you disagree with.  If the topic is ML, its a lock that any critique will be met by a litany of that stuff.  The idea is not just that you insult the other poster but to position yourself as so knowledgeable.

Lets get real here, this entire board spent 30 hours without the ability to deny that a key player had suffered a catastrophic injury, so really know one knows much and know one here has any real access to the program, surely you don't either.  "No one suffered a catastrophic injury" is something that anyone slightly connected to the program would know, and knowing just 1 person who is would get you that answer.  30 hours later the best we could do is dig up a photo posted online showing them all healthy. 

 So what we have here is what one would expect, very passionate GW fans expessing their views opinions and thoughts. You can express your own without telling everyone they know nothing, are going hysterical, that their opinions are "wrong facts" If you did that, you might find a lot more people like me who actually agree with you about ML stating so.  More importantly, the board would better retain a diversity of ideas and interesting discussions. 

 

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 4:42:22 PM

Bo, for what it's worth, I interpereted Cutis's use of the phrase "big problems" as more of a dramatic sentiment than a literal one.  For example, back in the day, I might have asked my son whether he studied for an exam the night before and his response might have been "not yet, but I'm going to start around midnight and pull an all-nighter" to which I would likely say somethink like, "if you think you're going to do well on that test without having studied up until midnight the night before, then you've got big problems."

Something like that.

 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 5:18:45 PM

Possibly MV but it's hard to discern tone in this medium. All we have is what is written and taken literally it was stated as a fact.

By: Rich Maier (17 posts) - 8/26/2015 5:18:55 PM

Bo, thanks for admitting you misspoke as i didn't say anything about a big problem. and don''t tell me what i said or what i meant. what don't you understand? my comment was about your arrogant tone in general not Cutis' post. do me a favor read my posts before you respond. 

that's it from here. have a great day.

By: The MV (4,915 posts) - 8/26/2015 5:52:54 PM

Yes Bo, it is difficult to discern tone here.  Perhaps another reason to give people the benefit of the doubt every so often.

I've really tried to be helpful to you today.  Rather than fight me on every point, maybe you can take some time to reread what I and apparently several others have been trying to communicate to you and take some advice.  Maybe it's due to this being the dog days of summer but it does seem as if your overexuberance in letting people know how wrong they are isn't being well-received or appreciated by at least several folks here.

By: Thomas (1,146 posts) - 8/26/2015 6:02:59 PM

I've got go back to the Montgomery County comment, was Cutis referring to Montgomery County public school players or Montgomery County players in general?? Because with the way the local private high schools snatch up all the good players from the area, you aren't going to find a lot of top-notch talent in the D.C and Maryland public schools. The D.C. Public schools(thanks in large part to Vaughan Jones) has gotten a lot better in producing college prospects in recent years.

If Cutis is referring to Montgomery County players, I'm sure ML has been recruiting a lot of them from private schools.  National Christian, Montrose Christian(when it was still a basketball factory), Bullis, Good Counsel, McNamara, DeMatha, Georgetown Prep and Clinton Christian are all private school basketball powerhouses located in Montgomery County. I'd assume they have a number of Montgomery County kids playing for them. The D.C. private school powerhouses like St.John's, Gonzaga, Maret and Sidwell Friends also have a number of Montgomery County kids.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 6:09:07 PM

Thomas - Clinton Christian, McNamara, DeMatha, National Christian are 100% not in Montgomery County - they are in PG County.

Moco publics are really getting awful and have been in decline for several years.

Yes, there are some Moco kids in the WCAC but not a ton - at least not ones that would be recruitable to GW.

 

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/26/2015 6:11:17 PM

Only one player from a Moco school (public or private) we are recruiting that I know of - Chyree Walker from Bullis (2017).

By: The Other MG (69 posts) - 8/26/2015 11:38:08 PM

Bo Knows:  First, let me say that we are nowhere close to being in big trouble.  I do believe that the 2016 incoming class is critical to maintaining, or hopefully improving our stature and record, and to keep the positive, winning momentum going for many more years.  If we can be an NCAA team, and have our names mentioned frequently, for, say 4 of the next 6 years, we can hit another dimension of sustained status.  And that kind of success builds on itself.  I think Coach can get us there.

Sorry, but I can't let your comments about Few, in light of your previous reference, stand without a rejoinder (a latent character flaw of mine that has been exacerbated by being a member of this board).  Since he has been so successful for so many years, by your theory, there must be fireworks somewhere.  Maybe so, but my point was that I have never seen him do anything to PUBLICLY embarrass a player, directly or indirectly.  Hard to put him in the same category of many of your other examples, in my view, and a different personality and style from Coach Lonergan (who I think is terrific).

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/27/2015 12:22:01 AM

Glad The Other MG noted that injustice about Few.  To  have the almost always mild-mannered, erudite, overachieving Mark Few lumped with that underachiever, sideline antics lunatic Tom Crean, is a far greater slight than being called a know nothing by Bo. (Hilarious that Rich always gets his own unique slight from Bo)

The Bo claims you know nothing slight has been thrown at just about everyone on the board, its been said so much we could basically form our own political party:

 

By: Long Suffering Fan (4,106 posts) - 8/27/2015 8:36:42 AM

So, at 12:22:01 they rested for the night, hopefully got a good nights sleep, re-energized, and are getting ready to go at it once again today...at least until some real news comes along.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/27/2015 9:00:43 AM

The Other MG - just one question how closely do you watch Few - every game? Do you watch Few more or less than ML? When you say you've never seen him publicly humiliate a player I need to know the reference point from which you speak. And by derivation, are you saying that ML has publicly humiliated players? If so, please give specific examples.

By: Bo Knows (705 posts) - 8/27/2015 9:03:45 AM

Telling Dude he knows nothing is the most offesnive thing you could ever say to him because in his mind there isn't a topic or subject he doesn't know everything about as evidenced from his spamming of this board on virtually every topic. Brain surgery anyone? :-)

By: Nitro (8/27/2015 3:13:53 PM)

Stop Bo. You will never convince the Dude of anything or the malcontents that ML is running a good program and his "antics" are well within normal latitutde given coaches. They want to talk about everything real and imagined here because more than GW basketball, they love the sound of their own voice. What is said here is more important to them than what actually occurs out on the court. You have to know that. So Bo, you are just wasting your time even if you view this as the "good fight". I hear you (and agree with you for the most part) but you are just wasting your own time. You will never ever convince those who think they invented the game or are just smarter than ML. Just not possible. Let them exist in the own little parallel universe. It won't make one bit of difference come game day. You know that and I know that. 

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/27/2015 3:59:45 PM

Easy fix Bo, don't constantly insult your fellow posters.

Funny how any thread where Bo attacks multiple posters on a Don Quijote quest to defend ML's honor from the invading hoards of Windmills, enter Bo posting under a suddenly emerging brand new poster name as if there's support for him. (then again "Bo" himself is a new alias from prior aliases)

There's no support for attacking people's reasonable opinions with insults, you don't need to invent more and more aliases to pretend like there is.  Nitro, Romans, GW1988, Blue Seats, Seneca. Tough to keep track at this point, except just as others have noted, they all have the same phrases, cadence, lingo, arrogance, insults love of administration and dismissal of others reasonable opinions.

By: ziik (2,950 posts) - 8/27/2015 4:10:34 PM

Dude, the faux paranoia is inane. Post up to your IQ. Make it worth reading.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/27/2015 4:35:06 PM

Disagree here Ziik.  I agree with Bo on ML, but I want to continue to hear from those who don't.  Allowing the endless insult campaign chases away a lot of those who expressed those views, I believe its worth discouraging for that reason. Several people specifically stated they stopped posting after Bo and Bo's aliases hurled insults at their reasonable ML critiques.

To be fair here to Bo, I don't find a lot of the ML critiques very compelling.  But they are almost all reasonable and we should be encouraging those views, not chasing people away.  If one doesn't agree, state why, stop attacking the posters.

That's what would raise the level of the discourse to everyone's IQ levels, not the sophmoric "you're so stupid" " you know nothing"  "you are trying to destroy the program" etc.

 

By: Nitro (8/27/2015 5:20:40 PM)

Dude, the white coats are likely coming for you shortly. I get it ... there is the Dude and everyone else is Bo alias. 

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0910/paranoia-october-challange-bruce-campbell-evil-dead-army-of-demotivational-poster-1256131803.jpg

By: Nitro (8/27/2015 5:22:26 PM)

By: Nitro (8/27/2015 5:32:52 PM)

Hey Dude - I call Bo up before I post to make sure we have the same cadence, lingo, phrases, arrogance, insults etc. We just have to be consistent you know.

By: Mike K (1,177 posts) - 8/27/2015 5:53:37 PM

Be careful Nitro, he is a Lerner superstar and might school you on the court. He is also very good at Softball, just ask him. On the topic of this thread, Goss and Ako will certainly help our name locally. It was nice thinking about the Joe/Kethan Sr. year of high school referenced above. It sure would be exciting following Ako if he commits and lights up the league his Sr year!

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/27/2015 6:12:32 PM

Yes, somehow you (Bo's newish buttress alias) made it years without ever once posting on the site, but has emerged in recent weeks as Bo's latest cheerleader, "Nitro" posted 3 times consecutively in the last few minutes after months and years without ever posting, all to be 100% pro Bo.  There are people who don't even care about GW here, they just care about backing Bo!! Verrrry believable.

This thread is about GW's recent local recruiting efforts, you could see the derailment efforts coming, just as I suggested days ago.

(Back to GW's local recruiting, I'll post once more on this other topic elsewhere, this thread is about GW recruiting Bo and Bo aliases.)

As to that topic, Ako yes, Goss no Mike K.  One is the caliber of local recruit we should be signing, and the other is more on par with Darian and Nick, but lets hope most of us and all actual talent evaluators are wrong about that. 

(As for Lerner, the only thing I do well these days Mike is feed the good players, while the 19 year olds like to jack up their own shots with Lasan, Kethan or Darian standing feet away from them. In doing so I've gotten to know a few of them and they tend to like to play with the 1 guy who will constantly feed them.  I'm old enough to know a little better than most 19 year olds, and you lose at Lerner, you sit at Lerner.  I think you are still missing the point about Lerner, it surely wasn't to suggest I'm great, but that's ok.)

By: Nitro (8/27/2015 8:42:15 PM)

So the Dude is an established longtime poster name correct? Dude didn't you tell us you recently start posting here (in the last year)? Classic deflection Dude. I guess you don't want anyone examining your aliases/name changes. I get it. I really do. Hold on a minute, I'll ask Bo who is sitting right next to me if he gets it too and whether I can continue to post here as an approved alias.

By: The Dude (529 posts) - 8/28/2015 7:47:57 PM

Thinker, occurred to me you/we've all left one local guy entirely out of the conversation (But I guess that alone says something)      :

Bowie, MD product Anthony Swan

HS - Lynchburg, VA (Virginia Episcopal School)

By: thinker (2,825 posts) - 8/29/2015 1:37:10 AM

T don't count Swan for any recruiting issue since he's Hajj's cousin. It's a completely different category that doesn't reflect how we're doing locally or otherwise. Just like Hobbs recruiting Copes didn't prove anything.

By: Bigfan (2,829 posts) - 8/29/2015 4:22:35 AM

Unless he takes a big step forward in the next year or two, we may wish Swan wasn't Haj's cousin.

 

By: BC (1,645 posts) - 8/29/2015 4:32:15 AM

Oh my God, Bigfan is The Dude's alter ego.   And he stays up too late as well.